Sleep Secrets: Evidence-based Steps to Improved Sleep

Dr. Cooper

Welcome to the latest episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Bradford Cooper and today we’re going to discuss a topic that we frankly hope puts you into a deep slumber. We’ll be talking sleep with dr Alex Agostini from South Australia. Dr Agostini has spent years studying sleep performance and health, all topics of great interest to us here at Catalyst. We’re going to jump right into the practical elements of sleep, why it matters and what we can do to improve our own sleep as we progress through this episode. Thanks as always to those of you who engage with us here at Catalyst, your emails have been wonderful and we really, really appreciate those of you who have shared the podcast with friends or or even taking the time to provide one of those five star ratings on iTunes. A kind comment for potential future listeners to see if you’re not already a subscriber, this might be a good time to jump on board. I’m looking ahead at who’s on tap for our next 12 episodes and you’re not going to want to miss these. As always, feel free to reach out to us with questions you may have about the coaching certification, integrating more meaningful coaching into your organization’s wellness strategy or anything else on your mind at Results@CatalystCoachingInstitute.com and you can always find additional resources or details about the upcoming certification at CatalystCoachingInstitute.com. Now, let’s dig into this crazy topic of sleep with Dr Alex Agostini on this episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching podcast.

Dr. Cooper

Dr Agostini it is a privilege to have you join us tonight.

Dr. Agostini

Thank you very much for having me.

Dr. Cooper

Yeah, absolutely. Sleep, sleep is such a popular topic even on this podcast the previous guests, we’ve had, people love listening to those episodes and what we’d really like to focus on here is the practical application of that, but first a little history. How’d you end up making this the focus of your research? You have all kinds of options. Why this?

Dr. Agostini

I have to say it was kind of an accident. I did my undergraduate degree in psychology and as part of that in my third year, I had to do some work experience. Um, I had a lot of options but most of them were working with older people, which was something that I kind of knew I didn’t really want to do. And so my only other option was working in the sleep lab at my uni and I was put there and that was about seven years ago and I’ve never really looked back because I had no idea that sleep was what I wanted to do. But when I got into it, I realized how interesting it is and how fascinating it is and how much you can help people when you know about sleep. So yeah, seven years ago and here we are still.

Dr. Cooper

Fantastic. Yeah. I always make the side comment that when people come up to me just randomly and I don’t know anything about them and they say, okay, mr wellness guy, what do I do to improve my life? Again, not having any conversation, nothing. If I’m just guessing, sleep is the, it’s the obvious first step. So good stuff. Everybody understands the importance of sleep, so let’s jump into some hot topics. First one, how much does sleep deprivation actually influence our performance? I know you’ve done a lot of your research on sleep and performance, but when it comes to that combination, that overplay, what’s, what’s the impact?

Dr. Agostini

It’s an incredible impact. Sleep, really. I mean, I get the question all the time. What’s the impact of not getting enough sleep? And honestly, it would be quicker for me to tell you what isn’t impacted. Literally nothing. It’s so hard for you to do things when you’re not getting enough sleep because you are literally working against your brain. Your brain needs sleep to be able to function. And if you’re not getting enough sleep, you just, you can’t do anything. You’re going to be grumpy or you’re going to be less motivated. It’s going to be harder for you to do absolutely everything. And if you were trying to play sport or do research or just generally, you know, get around your life, it’s going to be much more difficult for you to be able to do that if you’re not getting enough sleep.

Dr. Cooper

Hmm. Yeah. Very well said. Very well said. We, some of the research I’ve done is on literally mental toughness and sleep. And it was interesting to see that, that overplay. Okay, the difference between physical and cognitive decline with sleep deprivation and let’s talk more the temporary, the in the moment versus the 20, 30, 40 years down the road. But can you walk us through the influence of sleep or sleep deprivation on the physical decline and then also address the cognitive? You, you touched on both of those, but can you take us on a deeper dive on each one of those?

Dr. Agostini

Yeah, sure. So we find that, um, for people who aren’t getting enough sleep, generally their coordination will be impacted. If we’re talking about kind of more immediate impacts rather than down the line, it may not necessarily be particularly noticeable after one night of not getting enough sleep. Um, but after a couple of nights you realize you start to drop things. It’s going to be harder for you to perform simple tasks, but the more cognitive aspects are going to be, um, more noticeable straightaway. Things like being grumpy. You know, I always, when I talk to people about sleep, the first thing I ask them is if they are ever throwing a tantrum and then realize that it’s mostly due to not getting enough sleep. And if I don’t get 90% of the audience putting their hands up, it’s so, so it’s, it’s that sort of thing. It’s in terms of cognitive aspects, it’s just generally simple tasks being harder. You know, we all know two and two equals four, but when we’re not getting enough sleep, it’s gonna take us a couple of extra seconds to get there. And one thing that I always like to highlight, cause I do a lot of research with teenagers as well. Driving is a really important thing to consider when we’re talking about sleep and performance. We don’t always consider that if we’re not getting enough sleep our, safety is impacted. I think most of us know that we’ll get a bit grumpy and a bit testy if we’re not getting enough sleep. But our safety is really impacted. So things like driving, especially I bring up teenagers because they’re just starting to learn to drive. Um, and they’re already at an increased risk of accident from that perspective. But then if they’re not getting enough sleep, our ability to respond to stimuli is impacted. So it’s going to take us longer to step on the brake. It’s gonna take us longer to realize and act when we see red lights and things like that. So it’s not just really basic things like it’s going to be harder for me to form a sentence, but it’s also going to be safety critical tasks that are impacted.

Dr. Cooper

Hmm. Great point. Great point. Especially at that age, but, but true for all of us obviously. All right. Basic question. Do we all need eight hours of sleep?

Dr. Agostini

No we don’t. So most people are recommended to get roughly eight hours of sleep if we’re talking about adults. But we do find that this is a very individualized things or some people need more than that. For example, I will be the first person to put my hand up and say I need at least nine. Um, but some people are also going to be able to function on less than eight hours. So my recommendation is if you’re spending eight hours in bed every night, but you’re not able to get eight hours of sleep, but you’re still functioning well during the day, you feel fine during the day, you are likely to be one of those people who’s going to need less than eight hours. So if you’re spending eight hours time in bed, but you’re not sleeping for that time, don’t stress about it because it’s probably fine if you feel fine during the day.

Dr. Cooper

So it’s that self reflection of am I really feeling fine or am I just loading up on the caffeine?

Dr. Agostini

Well, yes, that’s another thing. If you, if you are feeling that you need a lot of caffeine to get through the day, you’re probably not feeling fine. But if you are, you know, I have one cup of coffee a day in the morning, that’s how I start my day. And I feel for the most part that I don’t need more than that. So if you’re kind of on that level, if you’re having one or two coffees and you feel generally that you’re well rested and you’re okay during the day and you’re not reaching for those supplements or, um, you know, other things to keep you awake, then that’s kind of the level that we’re looking at here.

Dr. Cooper

Okay, good. All right. Stressing it, you said don’t let it bother you if, let’s talk about that a little bit because we’re, we’re reading more and more about people tracking on their watch that they’re not getting the sleep they thought, and now that’s more stressful and now they’re like, Oh my gosh, I’m not getting what I should. Should we stress out if we fall short, let’s say watches aside. But if we literally do fall short for one or two nights, or is it more important to look at maybe a seven day or a 10 day pattern?

Dr. Agostini

It’s not worth stressing out because we know that stress impacts sleep. So if you have one night of poor sleep and you start to stress about it, that’s likely to impact your subsequent night’s sleep. So that’s why I’m always very careful when we talk about sleep recommendations that if you’re not getting eight hours, it’s not a reason to be concerned. Once we start to get to that more, um, kind of long term, um, uh, effect here where, you know, if we’re experiencing poor sleep for weeks at a time, that’s when the concern should start to come in. But I always like to stress, you know, pun intended, this, um, it’s, it’s not worth stressing about. So if you’re experiencing issues, go and see a GP, look up sleep hygiene online, you know, there are things that you can implement, but the more you stress the worse it’s gonna get cause stress is essentially the opposite of sleep. So if you are experiencing a lot of anxiety around sleep, that’s time for you to go and get some help about it and talk to them about it. That sort of thing because it’s not going to help you improve your sleep quality if you’re stressed out.

Dr. Cooper

That’s good advice. So, so looking at that one to two versus the seven to 10 day patterns, do you have some guidance for us on that? Cause I have read somewhere, I can’t remember the reference that it’s more important to look at the broader picture. So if you don’t have a good sleep tonight, it’s not a big deal if you’re not getting a good sleep for multiple days to, do we make adjustments after one or two days or do we keep an eye on how we’re doing more broadly?

Dr. Agostini

I think more broadly is the better way to go about it. If you think about it, if I have a bad night’s sleep today, tomorrow I’m probably going to be a little bit grumpy but I’ll get over it after another night of proper sleep. Once it starts getting into the weeks I think is the point that we really need to start to consider what we can do about it. Remember also there are going to be seasonal differences with sleep. Um, here it’s about 40 degrees Celsius, which is roughly 103 degrees Fahrenheit. So I’m not expecting to get the best sleep tonight. My home is going to be quite warm over the next couple of days. So it’s more about thinking about what the kind of triggers cause me to not have a good sleep and what you can do about that before you really need to start being concerned and going into the um, you know, into your GP and talking to them about sleep.

Dr. Cooper

Gotcha. Okay. Good. Alright. So we’re talking health and wellness and a lot of folks trying to watch their eating what they’re eating and maybe trying to be more disciplined with certain things. What happens to our, what we’ll call junk food cravings when we’re short on sleep? Is there any pattern, any correlation between the two?

Dr. Agostini

Yes, definitely. So we do find that people who go to bed later are more likely to eat junk food. My hypothesis with that is the longest time we have between dinner and bedtime, the more we have to consume junk food. That’s generally the time of day where we kind of don’t have a lot of distractions and we’re really starting to crave sugar. And so that’s, you know, peak time to sit in front of the television and chow down on a bag of chocolates. Um, and also if you’re getting poor quality sleep, you’re very likely to crave more junk food as well. So there is a very clear link between sleep and junk food consumption or sleep and poor diet because sleep helps to regulate our hormones and a lot of hormones will regulate our appetite. So the less sleep you get, generally the more hungry you are. But also you’re going to be making poor decisions around sugar and fats, especially when we’re not getting enough sleep. Our body craves high sugar, high fat foods because it thinks it’s going to keep us going when actually there’s no scientific evidence to suggest that high fat foods will do that. Um, so there’s a lot around the relationship between sleep and diet.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. So you talked about caffeine earlier. Let’s come back to that one cause one of the things that I hear a lot and probably a lot of the folks listening, maybe there are even saying and not just hearing, but I’m fine. I just have an extra cup of coffee, you know? Yeah. I drink my four or five cups a day, but I’ve seen the research, the, you know, coffee’s good if you’re over X amount, what, what do you say to that person that’s saying, you know, I’m fine, I’m getting through it. I don’t need my sleep. The caffeine keeps me rolling. What’s your response to that as a sleep researcher?

Dr. Agostini

Caffeine might keep you rolling. Um, but it’s not going to keep you healthy. So if we think about this from the perspective of what sleep does for you, it helps regulate your emotions. It helps you perform at an adequate level to keep you safe. It helps you interact with your family and friends. I could go on here all day. Sleep will do for you the positive aspects of it. Caffeine is going to help you not fall asleep. There are conflicting, um, evidences around, is caffeine actually going to help you to perform better? And I think generally the answer is no. Then there are all of the negative things like heart palpitations, jitters, all of that around caffeine as well. If we’re consuming a lot. So it might keep you going, but it’s not going to keep you healthy is my kind of my 2 cents there. I don’t think it’s an adequate replacement.

Dr. Cooper

So it’s almost, it allows you to survive. It does not allow you to thrive.

Dr. Agostini

Exactly. Yeah. That’s very well said.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. Okay. Good. All right, let’s talk about surprises. Uh, people heard a lot about sleep lately. What are some of the biggest surprises you’ve discovered in your research that people might say? Huh? Never heard that before.

Dr. Agostini

For me, I guess, cause I do a lot of research around, um, children. My thesis that I finished last year was specifically around the relationships between sleep and health in kids and teens. We ran a study that looked at the relationship between sleep and growth and we found that kids who weren’t getting enough sleep were actually growing at a slower, rate then kids who were getting enough sleep. And I think, you know, we all know that sleep is important for us and we know that it’s something that we have to do. But when you can actually see the physical detriments of not getting enough sleep. For me, that was kind of a moment where I went, Oh, this really is important.

Dr. Cooper

Oh, that’s huge. Wow. Wow. Okay, good. That’s a great story. Any others that might, cause I have not heard that before. That’s fascinating. Any others that kind of pop out to you?

Dr. Agostini

I mean there’s so much to consider here when we’re talking about sleep. One other thing is we ran a study to look at essentially simulating a school week. So we know that teenagers as they go through puberty experience a number of changes that make it harder for them to go to sleep at a time that allows them to wake up well rested for school in the morning. And I know I talk a lot about kids here, but this is also relevant for adults. If we’re working a nine to five, a lot of people are going to be not getting enough sleep before they have to get up to go to work in the morning too. So we ran a study where kids got five nights of short sleep to simulate the school week and then two nights of long sleep to simulate the weekend. And we found that after two nights of long sleep, the kids felt fine as subjectively they were saying that they were well rested and they were completely fine, but we were still seeing a lot of performance deficits even after those three nights. So what that tells me is that a weekend is not sufficient to make up for a workweek or a school week of not getting enough sleep. But there’s that extra kind of dangerous element of if we think we’re fine, we’re less likely to be taking safety precautions if we’re driving and we know that we’re not, you know, performing at the best of our ability, we might pull over and take a short nap or you know, we might reach for that extra coffee or you know, we might drive a little bit more slowly or we might not drive, which would obviously be the best option. But if we think we’re fine, we’re not going to be taking those proportions, which could potentially put us at a greater risk.

Dr. Cooper

Yes. And if we think we’re fine, we may not prioritize sleep hygiene. We may not prioritize, okay, I’ll shut the TV off a little bit early because we think, Oh, you know what, I’ll catch up on the weekend. I always do. I feel fine going into Monday. Are there things people can look for where they can say, Oh wow, she’s right. I’m not fine.

Dr. Agostini

I think it’s mostly important to be aware of our performance cause that’s kind of our best measure of how we’re doing. Obviously easiest to me in a lab environment, I can give someone a test and I can look at their response times, which obviously we can’t do in real life, but try to think about, you know, am I dropping things, am I stumbling over my words? They may not be really obvious, but just try to be kind of aware of how you’re traveling and if you’re making small mistakes that you wouldn’t make otherwise or if simple tasks are taking you a little bit longer, that might be your kind of, you know, hinge that perhaps you’re not performing at a hundred percent

Dr. Cooper

Hmm. Good. So that self reflection is key in that case. All right. So you touched on sleep hygiene earlier. You said, you know, let’s Google sleep hygiene. Can, can you walk us through a few? So if we go beyond the classic guidance of late caffeine intake, having your room prep, you know, nice and dark, having a little bit of a wind down time, limiting that blue light. Beyond kind of those three or four key ones, are there other suggestions you’d have for the person that’s might be having trouble falling asleep?

Dr. Agostini

Those ones, they are the basics, but they are really important to consider things, especially around technology. If I had a dollar for every time I’ve told someone, put the phone down before bed, very, very rich which is relatively simple. But those are the steps that you need to be taking to give yourself the best chance of having good quality sleep and sufficient sleep as well. Putting your phone down an hour before bed, not using any kind of technology for that hour and giving yourself that one downtime and also going to bed at the same time if possible is really important because it actually teaches your body when to sleep, which is the best way of ensuring a good night’s sleep. Going to bed at a regular time and you know on Wednesday you’re going to bed at midnight and on Thursday you’re going to bed at nine it’s going to be really difficult for your body to work out what’s going on essentially, so it’s going to be hard for you to sleep. The other thing that I always like to stress one which will be about getting enough sleep is if you’re sleeping in on Sunday morning, you might feel great on Sunday, but it’s very likely to make it more difficult for you to go to bed on Sunday night at a normal time on Monday morning. That sleep is going to be restricted and you’re going to be starting your work week on a negative note because you’re going, not going to be well rested enough to deal with your Monday. So having regular bedtimes is really important.

Dr. Cooper

Okay, good. Well that’s a, that’s a big one that I didn’t have on that initial list with the blue light. Quick question on that. So we have people watching television and be reading on their iPads or other tablets. Is that, is that television providing blue light or is that a different type than your phone provides? And what do you think of the, the reading on the tablet at night? Is that destroying what we’re trying to do here?

Dr. Agostini

I think the best thing to do would be to read a book if at all possible. Um, other options are reading things like kindles that don’t have the um, backlight. The difference mostly I think between the television and the iPad is the distance between the light and your arms. So if you’re holding the iPad quite close to your face, you’re getting kind of instant blue light right at the eye level. Whereas if your television is on the other side of the room this much longer for it to travel between your eyes. We also um, look a lot at how interactive the technology is. So the more you have to interact with the technology, the more stimulated you’re going to be going to bed. So for example, if you’re playing games on an iPad or on the television for example, before you’re going to bed, you’re much more likely to be too stimulated to get to sleep. When you do turn it off, something else to consider as the end point. So if you’re watching television, your end point might be when the show or the movie finishes. Whereas if you’re playing video games, there’s not necessarily an end point to that. So when do you turn off is also something to consider.

Dr. Cooper

That’s good. That’s good. Okay. So that’s problem A, the person that’s having trouble falling asleep, let’s, let’s go to the classic problem B, the person that falls asleep, but then they wake up for whatever reason, they hear a noise, they’ve got to go to the bathroom, whatever. And now they have trouble falling back to sleep. Any tips for that second group of folks?

Dr. Agostini

Number one tip, if you get up to go to the bathroom don’t turn the lights on. Okay, so turning the light on is going to be really alerting and that’s going to make it much more difficult for you to fall back to sleep when you do go to bed, if you’re having trouble falling asleep after you’ve waken up, good tip is actually to go and do something else. It’s something else that’s not very alerting, that’s going to be boring. And then once you start to feel tired to go back to bed, if we spend a lot of time in bed awake, our bodies will start to associate being in bed with being awake, which is not very conducive to sleep. And we also find that people who spend a lot of time in bed awake, we’ll stress, which as I mentioned earlier, so going to do something else. You know, reading a book in dim light or making yourself a cup of tea, making sure that there’s no caffeine in it might be a good way to kind of overcome that.

Dr. Cooper

Good, good. All right. You’ve done some of your research on performance recovery from insufficient sleep. Can you tell us more about your findings and the implications of that research?

Dr. Agostini

Yeah, so basically the biggest takeaway from that is a weekend is not enough to make up for five nights of not getting enough sleep. And we also find that if you’re consistently going to bed later, your internal clocks will delay, which means that when you’re waking up in the morning, you’re very likely to, your body’s very likely to still think that it’s nighttime. Your internal clocks will be telling you that you should still be asleep, which means that it’s really difficult for you to perform in the morning. So a lot of stuff around, you know, maintaining an adequate bedtime, making sure you’re not getting a lot of exposure to bright light at night to help you kind of stay aligned with the external day and night cycle is really important there.

Dr. Cooper

Okay, good. And so as a starting point, if you were, if someone came to you tomorrow and said, Dr. Agostini, I’m just not sleeping. Anything else you would throw out to them beyond some of those aspects that you mentioned for the person that isn’t recovered and needs to get the ball rolling again, are there some other tips that you might throw out there for them?

Dr. Agostini

Making sure they have adequate sleep hygiene is step number one. And I’m always talking about sleep hygiene. It’s not a quick fix. If you do it for one night or two nights, it’s not going to change much.

Dr. Cooper

Hm, great reminder

Dr. Agostini

Because your body actually needs time to learn and time to adjust to that. If you’ve done that for, you know, three weeks to a month and you’re not experiencing any differences, then it’s time to go and see your GP about some sort of screening for sleep disorders or insomnia or something along those lines.

Dr. Cooper

So would that be your basic recommendation is three to four weeks, give it time, give it that, you know, 21 to 28 days and then take the step. Don’t don’t give up after two days, but also don’t give up after 10 days.

Dr. Agostini

Yeah, I always have to stress that it is, you know, your body does need time to recover. Know a hundred percent that you are feeling horrible and you can’t function and you’re at risk to yourself and others. If you’re doing things like driving then it might be time to do it before the 21 days. So it’s a combination of severity as well as those other factors.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. Okay, good. Just a couple more. The one we love to ask everybody, how are you applying your research in your own life on a personal level? Is there some personal health and wellness pursuit you’re going after now and you’re taking some of the things you’re learning in your research and saying, okay, okay doc, how am I going to use this?

Dr. Agostini

That’s a great question. I’m really interested in weightlifting. I am particularly active at the gym and I know and I always tell people that your sleep will directly impact your physical activity as well. So we touched on diet earlier, but we do find the studies that those who don’t get enough sleep are less likely to do exercise or they’re less likely to do as much exercise and they’re more likely to get injured. So if I’m throwing around a lot of weight, it’s really important for me to be getting enough sleep. So I do as much as possible to ensure that I’m getting good sleep hygiene. Um, sleep’s also really important for recovery as well. So if I’m, you know, throwing around a lot of weight, I’m obviously putting my muscles under a lot of stress and I’m breaking those muscles and those fibers so for them to get better, for them to recover and for them to grow, I need to get a lot of sleep too. So always trying to ensure that I’ve got good sleep hygiene. My bedroom is perfect for sleep. It’s maybe not tonight. Um, as I mentioned, cause it’s going to be quite warm, but it’s dark. I’ve got adequate curtains. My pillows are replaced frequently. I don’t do any work in my bedroom. Refuse to do that cause I don’t want to be associating my bedroom with being awake. Um, so it’s all about, you know, trying as much as possible to have good sleep hygiene and making sure that I’m being reasonable with my expectations of sleep as well. So I know tonight it’s probably not going to be great. I’m not going to stress about it. It’s just going to be one of those things that we deal with and tomorrow night might be better.

Dr. Cooper

What a great answer. We have so many people listening that are saying, well, I’m a runner. Well I’m a triathlete. Well, I’m a weightlifter. Great answer. Just a reminder that we’re not just talking about this for getting through your day or, or having that a little bit better relationship or more effective at work. We’re also talking about recovery from the athletics, preparation for the athletics, et cetera, et cetera. So very good. One last one. Our listeners, most of them are looking to help other people improve their health and wellness. Anything that I haven’t teed up with the right question that you’d like to throw out to folks that are in that type of a role?

Dr. Agostini

I think the best thing to do and something that I always try to do when I talk to people in that kind of capacity is a lot of people overlook sleep because they don’t understand how important it is. And so when I talk to people about things that they can do to improve sleep, I’m always like, great, happy to do that. But first let me tell you why you should improve sleep because sleep is almost like eating your vegetables, right? Yes. I can’t wait to smash some like Brussels sprouts. It’s something that we feel like we have to do, but it’s kind of almost a waste because it means we can’t hang out with our friends over a weekend or something like that. So you need to really encourage people and explain to them why it’s so important and then they’re more likely to be on board.

Dr. Cooper

Love it. What a great way to wrap up. Dr Agostini, thank you so much for joining us. Keep up the great work. What’s the best way for folks to keep track of you? Are you on Twitter? Do you have a website if they want to follow your research and some of the things you’re discovering?

Dr. Agostini

Yeah, I’m on Twitter. I’m AlexAgostini3 on Twitter. I post all the time.

Dr. Cooper

Perfect. Perfect. Well, we will be following you there and thank you again for joining us.

Dr. Agostini

Well, thank you very much for having me.

Dr. Cooper

Ready to grab a few extra winks tonight? I’ll tell you, sleep can be a tough topic. We’re all learning how valuable it is and yet many of us, myself included, struggle with it at times. I hope you’re able to garner a few nuggets from Dr. Agostini in this episode. 2020 is just a few weeks away. In an upcoming episode I’ll be talking about creating a clear and meaningful vision for your own life as you head into the new year, the new decade. If part of that vision is to become a certified wellness coach, our next two fast track certifications are coming up relatively soon. Your first opportunity will be February 8th and 9th and your second will be April 4th and 5th either one of these events will set you up to pursue the national board certification before the requirements increase later next year. However, both probably will fill up early, so don’t wait if it’s something you’ve been considering and if it’s helpful, there is a six months, no interest payment option through PayPal available that allows you to spread out that investment. All the details at CatalystCoachingInstitute.com or please email us anytime Results@CatalystCoachingInstitute.com. Now it’s time to shut off the podcast and put it into action as we work toward better. One of the things I’ve learned in my own research is that better often begins in the bedroom and I’m talking about placing an emphasis on enhancing both the quality and the quantity of our sleep. Dr Agostini provided us with a starting point. Now it’s up to us to put that into practice consistently. Thanks again for joining us. This is Dr. Bradford Cooper signing off. Make it a great rest of your day and night, and I’ll speak with you soon on the next episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching podcast.