Practical Nutrition

Brad Cooper

Welcome to the latest episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching Podcast. My name is Brad Cooper, and I’ll be your host and today’s guest is registered dietician, Nancy Clark. Now I’ve been enjoying insights from Nancy for decades. Literally, I picked up her sports nutrition guidebook back in the nineties after reading some of her articles in runner’s world. And it’s just good stuff. Her sixth edition of the guide book actually comes out next week. And so when Nancy and I crossed paths at a conference, I was keynoting back in April, we thought, you know what? It’s a good time to have her join us on the podcast. Let me tell you a little bit about Nancy. Nancy is an international respected sports nutritionist, health coach, author, and workshop leader. She’s a registered dietician and has advised members of the Boston Red Sox, Boston Celtics and Boston breakers. In addition to collegiate, elite and Olympic athletes across a variety of sports, she’s a frequent contributor to runner’s world and is on the advisory board for shape magazine. She also writes a monthly column called the athlete’s kitchen, which appears regularly in 150 sports and health publications, as well as various websites, including active.com and momsteam.com. So you’ve probably come across Nancy in a variety of settings. Just a reminder our next fast-track CWC wellness coach certification is August 16th and 17th in New Jersey. And then we have another one, the following weekend back in Colorado on August 24th and 25th, that does include the complimentary board certification study groups that we provide all our students. So if that’s an interest to you, feel free to let us know any questions, you know, where to find us it’s Results@CatalystCoachingInstitute.com and you can visit the new website at CatalystCoachingInstitute.com to get all kinds of different resources and tools that frankly might be helpful as you move forward. Now on with the latest episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching Podcast.

Brad Cooper

It’s very much my pleasure to have Nancy Clark joining us today. I have her book with me from 1997. That’s how long I’ve known this lady. And now we get to talk to her live so, Nancy, welcome to the show!

Nancy Clark

Well, Brad, thank you for inviting me to be on the show.

Brad Cooper

Absolutely. Absolutely. The audience knows your background. But can you give us a little kind of quick version of the journey from point a to frankly being one of the top sports nutrition experts in the entire country?

Nancy Clark

Yeah, it’s been quite a journey and nothing that I really sought after or anticipated. The way the journey goes is that I went back to graduate school at Boston university, where I got my masters in nutrition with an emphasis on exercise physiology. And I was lucky enough afterwards to get this job working at a sports medicine clinic. And that’s going to be part of the sports medicine team. And, um, you know, the doctors were going to refer all these patients to me and everything was going to be easy peasy. Well, I was sitting there in this empty office and like nobody was coming in and it’s like, I need to get clients. And so I just did a lot of brainstorming and I talked with a friend and, you know, he said, Nancy, you need to like reach out to all the runners in the Boston area. Cause this was the time of Bill Rogers Greg Salazar and running was a really big thing. And so I reached out to the different running clubs and said, I’m going to write the Boston runners cookbook, you know, send me your recipes. And there’s a way to introduce myself, say hi, I’m here. And just to get a little bit known, so the, you know, the runners started sending in their recipes and I was getting them in. It’s like, Oh, I need to give them a recipe then. Yeah. And then my, my neighbor just happened to be working at a cookbook company. And she talked to her, her boss who said, I’m really interested in this. And so I met with him and he said, you know, Nancy, when can we get this book done? And it was going to originally, it was going to be called the Boston runners cookbook, but that changed and it turned it into the athlete’s kitchen was, which was my very first book. And so I had this book and I was, I still need to get clients in my office. So I had to market for clients and market to sell my book. And when you have a book, all of a sudden you become an expert, one day I was Nancy Clark and the other day it’s like, Oh, Nancy Clark is one of the experts. It’s really quite striking. Um, and so then I’ve just had to live up to this high standard of, of being on top of sports, nutrition, everything. Yeah. So it was just kind of happened. It’s I was just following my passion. I was helping people the way that I love to help them. And the timing was right.

Brad Cooper

You know, I’m, I’m smiling here. Cause you said it just kind of happened, but it just kind of happened is on the heels of, I did this, this, this, this, this, and this and that led to clients. And I think for our wellness coaches, one of the most common questions we get is I’m good at coaching, how do I get clients? And folks, you just heard a great example. Nancy saw an opportunity. She looked at a niche, she expanded on that. She broadened her reputation and she said, and then it just happened. But we all know from her description, it didn’t just happen. She took those steps and that’s, that’s a great story. I love that, that I love that. So next one, we’re going to step on some toes out there. Nutrition is kind of that third leg of the don’t mess with my beliefs stool. You know, you have religion, you have politics and you have nutrition. You’re established, you’re an established RD. You have a great background. How do you handle that in the midst of what you’re doing on a daily basis?

Nancy Clark

Well, I know that I’m never going to change anybody’s mind. We’ll just take keto athletes. For example, since they’re around these days, um, you know, if they are really into keto, I want to listen to them and figure out what is, what does this do for them? You know, why are they so attracted to it? What were they eating before? What can I learn from them? And I might say, well, you know, that’s, that’s an interesting point of view. You want to hear another point of view and just have a conversation. But, um, you know, people eat the way that they do oftentimes based on their value system or what works for them. And, and very often, you know, food is, it’s a really personal issue and, and what you put into your body. I know it, I just don’t argue with people. Um, I might see resistance and like a lot of times when I’m talking to my clients, you know, I’m talking, I’m, I’m suggesting that they might need like 2,400 calories a day to maintain their weight. And they think they need a thousand calories a day or 1200 calories. And, you know, I start encouraging them to eat more. And then I’ll say, you know, we all have this little voice. It’s like the don’t get fat voice. And I, I sense that you are kind of resistant to what I’m saying, because you have this little voice of say, don’t listen to that lady. She doesn’t know what she’s talking about. You know, she’s trying to fat you up. Um, so to make a joke out of it and they go, yeah, that my don’t get fat voice is really active right now. And so we just sort of joke about it and say, yeah, there’s a possibility that what I’m saying is true. There’s a possibility I’m lying through my teeth and you just have to, you know, figure that one out. Um, but maybe you want to experiment. Maybe you want to be curious, but I worked a lot with experimenting and curiosity, and you know you try something once. And you know, like a lot of people say, Oh, if I eat breakfast, I’m hungry all day. Well maybe they aren’t eating a big enough breakfast or breakfast with enough protein in it and say, well, maybe you want to try having avocado toast with an egg on it for breakfast and have like 500, 600 calories for breakfast instead of like 150. And so see what happens. And if they’re willing to experiment, they’ll discover like, wow, I wasn’t hungry until two in the afternoon. So it’s listening to where they’re at, you know, suggesting a few experiments, seeing if they had something, you know, that they learned that there might be another way of eating.

Brad Cooper

And being playful with it too. It sounds like.

Nancy Clark

Yeah, you gotta be playful. You gotta be playful. I, I don’t, I try really hard not to preach at people and try really hard, not to have good foods and bad foods. And our society is so entrenched in good food and bad food. It’s like, no, no, no, no, no, no. The only bad foods that you don’t want to eat, the foods that are moldy or poisonous or foods that you’re allergic to. Um, but other than that, there’s a good, there’s a balanced diet and an unbalanced diet. Um, but there’s not a, you know, an Apple was the good food, a diet of all apples is a very bad diet. So yeah. Yeah. So I say just trying to be playful and give them, you know, little sound bites that they remember.

Brad Cooper

Nice, nice, great reminder. Great reminder. What, what are some of the most ridiculous things you’ve heard lately in the nutrition world? We’re all hearing them, we’re on Twitter or we’re seeing headlines and different fads out there, but you’re, you’re, you’re in it. What are some of the, the, the biggest in terms of the ridiculous scale?

Nancy Clark

Well, I think in terms of it, ridiculous scale is that cow’s milk is only for baby cows. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t get that. It’s just, it’s a form of, uh, of, uh, nutrition that is, um, really nutrient rich and, and, um, excellent source of protein. And for people that are into, you know, buying their casein or their whey, it’s like, why do you have such a highly processed food when you could, you know, just have a glass of milk. Um, but again, there’s, there’s a whole anti dairy religion. Um, and you know, there are many ways to get calcium and protein. So, um, I just happened to see various things, very convenient, uh, convenient package, but, um, I mean, others silly things like intermittent fasting. I, I think it used to be called skipping a meal. I mean, everything goes around in a circle. Yeah. Those are sort of crazy things that push my buttons.

Brad Cooper

You mentioned your first book was 1987. Are you seeing the same things cycle back over and over and over? Is it like you say, it used to be called skipping a meal. Now it’s got this cool term intermittent fasting. Is that kind of the trend in your industry, your business?

Nancy Clark

They, they do go around circles, but they also change a lot. Like it was really interesting. I’ve just revised the fifth edition of my sports nutrition guide book. And it’s coming out with the sixth edition and every time I revise the book, it’s fascinating to look back at what’s happened over the past five or six years. What’s new in nutrition and this time, um, what really needs to be changed a lot was the recipes. Like now people are into kale and keenwah and, um, Curry and chia, whole bunch of new foods that when my first book came out, it’s like, Oh no, nothing weird. Like, you know, not, not very many beans cause we, we don’t want, you know, anything weird. And, and now there’s a whole emphasis on more plant-based nutrition. So that’s not going in a circle that sort of going on a different road. Right. But the whole carbs are fattening has been around for generations. The whole, you know, Oh, the more protein you eat, the bigger muscles you’ll have has been around for centuries. And so some things don’t change, but some things do change and it’s, and I think the food culture has changed. Um, you know, today’s food culture is, Oh, food is fattening. Oh, Oh, Oh, you don’t want to eat that. And or people talk about food, like as a drug. Oh, Oh, I don’t, I don’t do bagels. I don’t, I don’t do wheat. Um, yeah. And, and so it’s dealing more with a changed culture, but you know, food is fuel. It always has been, we have always need carbs and proteins and fats and vitamins and minerals. So that there’s some basic things that are evergreen, but the context has changed a lot. Right.

Brad Cooper

So let’s hit the two broader categories. Let’s talk general population to begin with. What would be your three most important tips when it comes to nutritional strategies for the general population? So athletes might be a part of that, but we’re going to talk about them in a minute general population. What, what would you throw out there as the big three?

Nancy Clark

Well, the first thing that I focus on when I’m working with clients or readers is the importance of, um, preventing hunger. People, when people get too hungry, they don’t care. They eat the whole thing and they eat the wrong thing. I mean, if I get too hungry, do I, do I want some carrots? It’s like, no way I want really good frosting on it. So all this whole, there’s a whole slew of people who swear that they’re addicted to sugar, that carbs are evil, that they’re addictive. And it’s like, no, the problem isn’t sugar and sugar cravings and being addicted to sweets. The problem is you’ve gotten too hungry. So I work a lot at helping people understand the power of hunger, how hunger is physiological. And when you get too hungry, you not only eat, but you overeat. And the analogy is if I were to stick your head under water and keep it there too long, when you popped up, could you breathe normally? No. Yeah. So if you skip breakfast, have a lettuce leaf for lunch, come three o’clock in the afternoon. When somebody shows up with a birthday cake for the office, can you just have a little slice? It’s like, no, you want to eat the whole thing and say, Oh, I’m addicted to sugar. Um, so I look a lot at hunger. So that’s one of the most important tips is to prevent hunger the, in the way to prevent hunger or the second tip is to eat a bigger breakfast and to make sure there’s like 20 grams of protein in breakfast, that’s like three eggs, oatmeal cooked in milk with peanut butter swirled in, um, you know, it’s a Greek yogurt with high protein granola and some nuts. I mean, so it’s not just, um, a cup of coffee. It’s not just a slice of toast. It’s like breakfast. And so you eat, you prevent hunger. You do that by eating a bigger breakfast. And, um, if you want to lose weight because diets generally start at breakfast, but if you want to lose weight, you lose weight by eating lighter at dinner. So you fuel by day ruin your appetite, and then at nighttime eat a little bit, a little bit lighter. So you lose weight when you’re sleeping. And the goal is to wake up, ready for breakfast. So if you wake up ready for breakfast and go, aha, I lost weight last night when I was sleeping, but you don’t try to lose weight when you’re exercising, working functioning during the active part of your day. So those would be my tips, prevent hunger, eat a substantial breakfast. And if you want to lose weight, do it at nighttime when you’re sleeping.

Brad Cooper

Love it. So what, what about the person who says, you know, I conceptually I think that’s a great idea that, that, that sounds good to me, but I wake up in the middle of the night hungry. Are there any tips that can be congruent with that advice that might tie them over a little bit more in that eight hours of sleep?

Nancy Clark

Yeah. When, when you go to lose weight, you don’t want to starve yourself. You just chip off a couple of hundred calories at the end of the day. And so it’s, I go by the chip away plan. And so if you just chip off, you know, 200, 300 calories at the end of the day. So instead of having that bowl full of ice cream, you, you won’t wake up at two in the morning, starving. If you wake up between the morning, starving that means that, I mean, you, you, you, you should have eaten more at the end of the day or more that day. So you just wake up and like you, instead of waiting an hour or two before you eat, like you do, when you have a food hangover, you wake up and say, yeah, I’m ready for something. You know, I think I’ll have a banana and sort of start today with, you know, uh, a tank that’s ready for some food in it.

Brad Cooper

I love it. Good advice. So let’s turn to the athletes now, key items the athletes need to keep in mind that might differ a little bit from the general population. And I know I’m throwing a really broad category by saying athletes because you’ve got everybody from a sprinter to a baseball player, to an Ironman triathlete, et cetera. But can you give us some general ideas for the athletic population?

Nancy Clark

Yeah. The general athletic population listens to the messages that come out to the overall population that sugar is evil. Carbohydrates are bad, limit your carbohydrate intake. And what athletes fail to recognize is that the body of a person handles carbohydrates very efficiently and effectively as compared to the body of an unfit person. And so for an athlete to have oatmeal for breakfast and to have, um, you know, if they need a sports drink during their long run or for them to have, you know, a cookie or two, um, you know, if they have sugary things, juice, the body just takes that carbohydrate and the muscles, soak it up. And it replaces their depleted glycogen stores. But if an unfit person drinks say like a tall glass of orange juice, their muscles, don’t take up that blood sugar in the same way. And that’s what creates problems. So the problem isn’t sugar, it’s what your body does with sugar and an athletic person’s body does good things with the sugar. It uses it to fuel the next workout, whereas an unfit person in the general population, their body, their blood sugar might rise and they might, you know, have more complications from type two diabetes.

Brad Cooper

Right. Okay. That’s good. I like it. Now, in terms of that word athlete, you, when we talked about that’s a wide range of people. At what time, when, when you’re working with somebody, at what point do you do a slight mental shift on your recommendations from this person is in quotes general population versus this person is more the athlete in terms of the guidance that you’re giving. Because like you said, it’s, it’s so different than how the body takes it in and, and what it does with it.

Nancy Clark

Well, it, it sort of depends, um, the intensity that the person is working out and also are they competitive, but it’s also social. Like, you know, I grew up pre title nine. And so I’ve never considered myself an athlete I’m athletic and certainly physically fit and can do all sorts of marathons and stuff, well in my heyday I could. Um, but I never saw myself as an athlete. Whereas my daughter in high school, she was, she was a student athlete. It’s like, she’s an athlete. Why wasn’t I? I think that everybody should eat like an athlete. If that means eating for high energy and eating for good health and performance, either in the gym or office at work, you know, everybody needs to eat well. And for a competitive athlete, then, you know, you really want to spend more time on fueling up and refueling and, and, you know, athletes, they, they’re eating with a purpose. They’re fueling up, they’re refueling and they’re eating to perform. Um, so, but that could be all of us.

Brad Cooper

Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully move the dial on this one. One of our focal points of this podcast is to keep things evidence-based not to be chasing the headlines, not to be you know, fallen prey to all the fads. What advice would you have for folks that obviously I’ve looked at your book, you you’ve done that very effectively, your entire career. What advice would you have for health and wellness coaches or others that are listening to this saying, I don’t want to follow the fads. I don’t want to chase the headlines, but that’s, what’s out there. What, what, what guidance might you have for them if they’re motivated in that way? And hopefully they are?

Nancy Clark

I would advise them to take a nutrition course or sports nutrition course at an accredited college or university or community college. It’s interesting. The, the, the story that goes with that is that, um, a couple of college students from, um, well from Simmons university here in Boston, and they were both into, you know, health and fitness and they were nutrition majors and, or also personal trainers as, as well, and to become personal trainers first. And then they figured I need to know more about nutrition and when they were personal trainers, they were really into all these supplements and protein powders and really soaking in all the latest fad. And, and they made this comment. It’s like, you know, the more educated I became, the fewer supplements I took, the more educated I became, the more I started trusting food. Um, and so they were just, um, you know, typical examples of people that, you know, listen to the headlines and soak it all in. It’s like, Oh, really need those branch chain amino acids. Right. Um, whereas when I studied nutrition, they go, huh. You know, like chicken is filled with BCAAs, Greek yogurt. And it’s like, Oh, you don’t even need to buy that stuff, huh?

Brad Cooper

I like that. That’s that’s, that’s good. And then I think that’s a quote we can remember too, the more I learn, the less I need the fake stuff. That that’s, that’s good.

Nancy Clark

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was, it was really interesting just having them, um, in both of them sort of like independently so that the more they learn they realize that they could change their ways and save a lot of money.

Brad Cooper

All right. Your turn. Now, when it comes to your health and wellness, we, we’re not going to give you the out of talking about food, nutrition here, but in your health and wellness, what is something you’re struggling through? And, and what’s the current strategy that you’re trying out just a little bit on your end of things?

Nancy Clark

I mean, the, the area that’s difficult for, not just me, but for everybody these days is sedentary time. You know, I get a ton of emails. I can do a ton of writing, you know, locked into your computer, right. I mean, it’s just, you can spend way too much sedentary time. So I, I have this stationary bicycle that, um, it has like a little computer screen in front of it and I’ve slipped a baking pan underneath it. So make a little desk. And I put my laptop on that so I can Exercycle and do my emails, or I can Exercycle and write and you know, the hours, um, and I’m not working hard, but I’m at least getting blood flowing through my body. I’m moving. I’m not just sitting there. And that has been a godsend. Um, because I just go crazy just sitting all day. It’s not my, it’s not my cup of tea. And so to figure that out, it’s good. And then I ride my bike to work and I have a dog that always needs to be walked to get enough exercise. So let’s say I, I I’ve set up a lifestyle that manages it. I mean, the thing I need to work on is working less. Um, and I’m, I’m, I’m working on that. I’m making headway. My book is my new book is done. That’ll be out in July and life will be easier.

Brad Cooper

Let’s just have some fun with that because that’s, uh, something I have not figured out. I’m constantly saying, when this happens, then I’ll relax. When this happens, then I can settle in a little bit more. And all that happens for me, Nancy is when this happened, then I’ve chased something else. Have you, have you figured out any little tips or tactics that have worked for you with some of these things? Because again, you’re on your sixth edition, your books you’ve had at least six major things happen in your life. Have you been successful then in finding some strategies to you say, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let’s, let’s dial it back here a little bit.

Nancy Clark

It’s okay to have downtime. And I mean, I, I went to this stress management time management course years ago, and it was really helpful in what the person said is that you can’t be productive from the time you get up in the morning until the time you go to bed. And the average person wastes two hours a day. And I thought I was sitting there going, I don’t have time to waste two hours a day looking at how I waste time. Like, you know, after dinner, I just stand at the stove and pick the green beans out of the casserole. And then I pick the pizza out. Then I pick out the client. It’s like, why are you sitting here picking the vegetables out of the casserole? Cause if I weren’t doing that, I’d be, you know, cleaning the toilet, paying the bills and doing this blah blah blah. And it’s like, I was just wasting time. I mean, it’s like, Oh, I wasted my time in stupid ways. I might as well just sit down and read a magazine or, you know, and so I I’m, um, you know, giving myself permission to have, you know, two hours a day that I do nothing or do exactly what I want to do and not what I should do. Um, but it, it makes it sharpens the sword. It makes me more effective the other hours of the day. Um, and so I’m just maybe gonna ramp it up to three hours a day of downtime and, um, figuring out other ways, low key ways to enjoy life.

Brad Cooper

But starting with giving yourself permission. Now, now I’m going to give myself permission for three hours and then figuring out how you want to invest those in a fun way.

Nancy Clark

Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, my garden, having time to legally work in the garden. So I’m like, Oh, I got to go do the gardening. And then I gotta do this. And then I gotta do that. Like, no I’m going to like hang out in my garden for an hour and peacefully weed as opposed to like, get it done in 10 minutes.

Brad Cooper

All right. I love it. Good stuff. So you, you have someone donate a billboard, massive billboard on the side of the busiest road in America. You can put any health and wellness related message on that billboard. What would you choose?

Nancy Clark

I would say to prevent snack attack, eat a dinner sized breakfast, dinner for breakfast and your breakfast for dinner. And, and I got that quote from, uh, this man that I was chit chatting with and he said, Nancy, you know, I had a bunch of weight to lose and it was so easy. All I did is I started having my dinner for breakfast and my breakfast for dinner. Cause I lost weight, like painlessly. It just melted off and I wasn’t hungry. It was easy. I was happy. I just switched my meal timing.

Brad Cooper

I love it. Yeah. I’ve, I’ve heard people that are taking that to the game of flipping the meals too. So they have their, you know, whatever their main meal would be. They, they literally, don’t not just in size and scope, but it’s literally there’s dinner and then their breakfast at dinner. So I like it. And I can see a fun visual to go with that billboard too. So good choice. Good choice. Last question. Obviously, an effective, a well-trained health and wellness coach would refer any detailed nutritional information or questions they get to a qualified professional, cause that’s not most wellness coaches, but with that in mind, any final words of wisdom for the coaches that are listening, who want to make a difference in the lives of their clients when it comes to food nutrition? So outside of the referral, which I think they’re all doing, what else other advice would you have for coaches that want to help their clients address that non-specific aspect?

Nancy Clark

When my clients continually struggle and they know what they should do and they just don’t do it is because they don’t do it because they’ve gotten too hungry. And so we really, I really attack that from the hunger perspective. And it’s like the number of people who just resolve their food issues by preventing hunger is amazing. So I mean, I would figure out why is that person still struggling? Now food is fuel that you’re supposed to eat and food is also a drug. And so if a person is drugging themselves and smothering their problems with ice cream sundaes, then certainly they need to work with, uh, with a therapist and, and sort of figure out what the, what the road blocks are there. Yeah.

Brad Cooper

Anything, I didn’t ask any questions that you were sitting there thinking, I bet he’s going to ask this. I bet he’s going to ask this. I’m just going to ask this anything you’d like to have me tee up as, as kind of final words of wisdom you want to share?

Nancy Clark

Final words of wisdom to remember that food is fuel and you want to be as nice to your body as you are to your car, put gas in it and it goes, you have a body, you put food in it, it goes a lot better instead of like, Oh no, you know, I’m fat. I shouldn’t eat. Um, it’s like no large people that live in large bodies need more fuel than people that live in smaller bodies. Like trucks need more fuel than mini Coopers. So we’re supposed to eat and food is, should be one of life’s pleasures. Um, the trick is to find a bunch of yummy, healthy food. Like I love peanut butter and it’s yummy and it’s healthy. Um, other people love avocado toast and it’s yummy and it’s healthy. I mean, there’s also so many healthy foods that are around and fuel according to your circadian rhythms and nest during the daylight hours, that’s when the body is designed to be fed. And so you want to fuel during the active part of your day food that you totally enjoy that too. Um, you know, by preventing hunger, you will naturally want more quality food. Cause it makes you feel better than foods lower in nutrients and it’s not difficult, um, is not really a food issue. It’s a management issue. How do you manage to have the right food in the right place at the right time to prevent yourself from getting too hungry? And that’s not too difficult.

Brad Cooper

Yeah. Excellent. Great. Well, Nancy, I really appreciate it. How best for people to keep track of you? Do you have a Twitter handle, your website? What would you like in terms of the way people can reach out?

Nancy Clark

My Twitter and Facebook is, um, N Clark RD. So @NClarkRD. Uh, my website is NancyClarkRD.com. So N A N C Y C L A R K R d.com. And my nutrition guide book, the new sixth edition will probably answer all of their questions. Plus more things that I hadn’t even thought about. Sort of focusing on the latest food culture that we’re living in and how to be at peace with food at peace with your body and have fun at the same time.

Brad Cooper

Nancy, thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate it. Great stuff.

Nancy Clark

Well, thank you, Brad. It’s an honor to be on your podcast.

Brad Cooper

Wonderful insights from Nancy Clark. If you’re not familiar with her guidebook, it’s sitting here in front of me. It is literally 500 plus pages of insights. So definitely worth a peak. Speaking of worth a peak, if you’ve not been to CatalystCoachingInstitute.com, since we updated the site, take a look. We really spent a lot of time improving the flow, making the resources, the tools, those kinds of things, the special reports, much more readily available, easier to find things so love to have you take a peak at that when you get a chance and for the folks thinking about the Rocky Mountain Coaching Retreat and Symposium, which is taking place in Estes Park, Colorado, September 6th, through the 8th, there are a few spots left, but it’s, it’s starting to get tight. So if you’re looking into that, don’t wait too much longer. If you have any questions at all, related to health and wellness coaching, you know where to find us Results@CatalystCoachingInstitute.com, we spend time every day chatting with folks about their careers, what the certification is all about. Does it fit? Does it not? How does the national board certification, any of those things, let us know, happy to talk it through with you. As always, thank you. Thank you. Thank you to those of you who actually subscribed to the podcast. We have not been doing any advertising and it’s still growing, and so that’s primarily due to you and I appreciate you passing that along. Until next time, let’s all keep pursuing better. Let’s not be satisfied with the way things are right now. Let’s get after better and let’s help those around us do exactly the same thing. Thanks again for joining us. And I’ll speak with you soon on the next episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching Podcast.