How Can I Help? (Flight 232 Survivor and Sportscaster)

Dr. Cooper

Welcome to the latest episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Bradford Cooper, and we specifically planned today’s episode to coincide with the week of Thanksgiving, which in many ways is the unofficial start of the holiday season. Now the holidays can bring with them a great amount of joy. There’s extra time with family, friends, loved ones. However, what often isn’t discussed is the pain that sits beneath the surface, the struggles we all have, and the fact that the holidays can actually increase the intensity of those struggles in the midst of everything else. Today’s guest is Jerry Schemmel. Jerry is the play by play analyst for the Colorado Rockies major league baseball team. However, he is also the survivor of the 1989 crash of flight 232 which resulted in the death of 112 people who were on that flight with him. Today we’ll touch on a few lighthearted sports-related questions out of the gate, but the focus will be on how we can help those around us or maybe even garner some personal guidance when the plane crashes in life seem to take over.

Dr. Cooper

One of the things I haven’t mentioned quite some time is our continuing education courses that are available at catalystcoachinginstitute.com. As I was preparing this, I remembered one of our most popular courses is actually titled coaching someone through a crisis, which obviously overlap significantly with today’s discussion, but we have a huge library of options so there are no prerequisites, feel free to poke around under the education tab on the website and of course always feel free to reach out to us with anything coaching related results@catalystcoachinginstitute.com thanks for joining us. Now let’s listen in on the conversation with Jerry Schemmel on this episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching Podcast.

Dr. Cooper

Jerry Schemmel. It is such a pleasure to have you join us today, my friend.

Jerry Schemmel

Oh, well thank you Coop. It’s good to be with you, my man.

Dr. Cooper

Absolutely. Your background, the audience knows a little bit about you from the introduction if they didn’t already know you, but could you give us some of the highlights of how you went from, and this always makes me laugh from law school to one of frankly the most coveted careers in the world as a major league baseball play by play analyst.

Jerry Schemmel

You know what, I wonder that myself sometimes. And I talk about sometimes like how did this happen? You know what I think really got down to was this, I came out of college with a degree in broadcast journalism. I wanted to be a play by play announcer. I really did, from day one, probably as a 18 or 19 year old. And that’s really when I got out of school and I could not find a job and I could have done a sports anchor at a small market or something and you know, read sports in front of the camera and probably got a job that way and done okay. But I want to do games and I just couldn’t find a job coming out of college. So plan B for me was going to law school. So my brother was an attorney and I got into the law school that I wanted to get into at my undergrad, Washburn University has a law school and so I thoughtI’ll just go to law school since that other things not going to work out.

Jerry Schemmel

And then during law school, my first year, I got a part time job doing broadcasting starting with high school games on the radio. And so that just sort of opened that up back up again. And, I did both for a long time. I graduated law school practiced law for four or five years on my own while I was doing freelance broadcasting. And then once I got into the NBA, which is 1991, with Minnesota 1990, then I gave up the law practice full time. So that’s kind of the way it worked. I know it’s a little bit different route than a lot of broadcasters, but it worked out okay for me.

Dr. Cooper

Nice. Very nice. Well, our focus today is, you know, it’s going to be how we can most effectively support clients, friends, family members who have survived figurative plane crashes in their own life. But before we get too serious, let’s do some sports stuff here. You spent about 18 years as an announcer in the NBA before moving on to major league baseball. What were some of the things that you remember that might surprise our listeners about the whole NBA culture and some of the things you experienced there?

Jerry Schemmel

Yeah, you know, first of all, I loved it and I miss it a lot. I’ve been away from it for 10 years now. The NBA, and I don’t think I’d miss it this much, Brad, to be honest with you. But I really miss the game excitement, the energy, the enthusiasm, the emotion that goes into every NBA game. Because baseball is so different as, you know, it’s slow paced and there’s not a great physical exertion going on all the time and it’s fun and it’s a great game, but I kinda miss that electricity of an NBA game. So, I think when I tell people that it’s like, Oh, okay, well that makes more sense if we think about it that way. But, I miss as well, the action of guys that are six foot eight and great athletes flying up and down a court, I’m still just amazed at how big these guys can be and they can still have agility and speed and quickness like they do.

Jerry Schemmel

And I just don’t see that much in baseball. So that’s the stuff that I remember a lot is these incredible athletes that play the game of basketball at that high level. I do miss as well the close game where your team makes a last second shot and you nailed a call. Those are, those are fun times for me that you don’t get in baseball, you get your walk off home run or hit someone with a baseball. But in basketball you’ve got that chance to call the game winner at the end is just, exhilarating. And it’s something that I loved and I miss these days.

Dr. Cooper

Interesting. Very interesting. How about the culture of the players? And obviously things change quickly in our culture. So what’s happening now might be very different than it was 10, 12 years ago, but any surprises in terms of what you experienced there, what you saw there happening with the teams, the interaction with the coaches, the players, all those kinds of things?

Jerry Schemmel

Well, I can tell you the culture in the NBA is way different from major league baseball, at least for the Rockies. The team I called games for is really a bunch of, and I think you and I have had this conversation. It’s a bunch of guys that are just normal people that happen to be good at baseball and a lot of things in common. And it’s the nature of the game. It’s played by a bunch of suburban kids for the most part, and then you got your Latin guys that come over. In basketball, nine out of 10 guys are from the inner city, nine out of 10 are black. Eight out of ten are from broken families. It’s just a completely different background of players. Not that it’s bad that it’s better than baseball, it’s just a lot different. And in basketball, these guys come into the league with a rookie contract and they’re instant millionaires. Where in baseball, you gotta play in the minors for probably at least three or four years and work your way up. Don’t make much money. And then hopefully after six years, three years as a rookie contract, and in three years you can sign a contract and make some money. So basketball is different that way. There’s that instant gratification monetarily with players that you don’t get in baseball that really makes it different.

Dr. Cooper

Hmm. That’s a great point. I didn’t think about that. All right, so give us one funny story from each one that you remember from NBA, one major league baseball. Probably keep it as a non-current player just to not put you on the spot at all, but just something, some fun little story from each that folks might go. Huh? Never heard that.

Jerry Schemmel

Yeah. In basketball in the NBA with the nuggets. I did a game where the nuggets played the Utah jazz and John Stockton was the point guard for the jazz hall of famer as a NBA record for most assists. I think the greatest point guard that ever played. The nuggets had a guy named Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf with Chris Jackson. And he was lighting up the Jazz in Utah in Salt Lake City and Stockton of course is matched up against and just couldn’t stop. He ended up with 53 points I think in the game. And at one point late in the fourth quarter, Mahmoud hit like three or four jumpers over him and he took this jumper and John Stockton just took his forearm and knocked him the floor. He was so frustrated because he couldn’t stop this guy from scoring. He just knocked him down and Mahmoud just gets right back up and jumps over the free throw line. This guy’s the future hall of fammer and I just saw him deck our guy. And our guy gets up, ready for to make his 54th shot of the night. So that’s the one, you know, there are big games and big plays and finish games that were great and being in the play off a couple of times, but that’s the one that sticks out for me. It was just a kind of a funny moment involving who I think is the greatest point guard in the history of the game.

Jerry Schemmel

With the Rockies. I was fortunate to call Carlos Gonzales’s walk off home run to hit for the cycle at the same time, four or five years ago. He had a single double triple and it was in the ninth inning, was 7-7 I think. And he hit hit a home run as a walk off to win the game and for the cycle. So, Nolan Arenado actually had the same thing, but I didn’t have his call, but it was I think in the 10th inning. So I had that call and that in baseball was probably my most memorable moment.

Dr. Cooper

Wow. I could see that. Great stuff. Great stuff. All right. Time to go deeper. In 1989, you’re about 29 years old. You’re on flight 232 when the engine blows up, you’re 37,000 feet in the air. Plane crashed in Sioux city, South Dakota, 296 people on board and 111 don’t get to go home. You survive physically, but obviously it was a very long journey back psychologically. Can you walk us through that a little bit?

Jerry Schemmel

Yeah, I sure can. You know, when look back on it now, this is going to sound kind of crazy when I say it, but hopefully it’ll make sense, but I look back at the crash, Brad, and I’ve known this for a long time, for a decade now and see the time before we hit, knowing we’re going to hit, the crash itself, the aftermath, all the craziness that happened in Sioux city. I look back and see the easy part. The harder part for me was dealing with all the emotional fallout that came from that crash and I had never heard the term post-trauma stress disorder. We hear it all the time now with our military personnel, but I was diagnosed with that and I didn’t have any idea what that even meant, what those words meant, let alone what it meant for my life. And, I went on a kind of a downward spiral for several months after that crash that I really couldn’t figure out.

Jerry Schemmel

I quit my job. I didn’t want to work. Obviously I was in depression. My marriage was falling apart. I got six brothers and sisters and my parents were alive then and very close family, I wouldn’t even return your telephone calls. And I was suffering from PTSD and I didn’t know what to make of it. I didn’t know what to do about it. I didn’t know where it came from, you know, it figures from the plane crash. But I didn’t know that. And that was just for about 10 months, almost a year after the crash. That was a very, very difficult part of my life. And I was thinking just the other day, anticipating us talking about it, that I can’t believe that my wife and I have been married 34 years now, we just celebrated our anniversary, but yeah, we were married four years at the time of the crash and if you would’ve told me at that time that our marriage would last that I would’ve said absolutely not. We were so close to breaking up and we worked through that and now we’re here for another 30 years after it.

Dr. Cooper

Wow. Wow. One of the things we want to try to peel out of this for the folks listening is they’re interacting with folks. Maybe clients may be coworkers, family members that are going through some tough stuff. So any feedback, and obviously you’re different than the next person, but just from your perspective, were there things that those around you did, said, modeled, anything that had a positive impact through that tough, you said it was about 10 months that was the deepest part?

Jerry Schemmel

Yeah. Yeah. You know, there are some things that people said that really, that were tough that I just sort of shook my head at. People would say, you know, you survived that plane crash so you could do something, you are going to be president of the United States, you are going to do this, you can do that and I’m like I don’t know about that. I’m just happy to be alive here. And they are all well intentioned. It really is. And, other people said, well someday you’ll figure out, you know, why God allowed you in that plane crash and you’ll have the answer. And it’s been 30 years. I don’t have any, I’ve got some of the answers. I don’t have all of them. I wish it wouldn’t have happened, you know, still.

Jerry Schemmel

And there was one thing Brad, to answer your question, I guess that my brother said to me, I’ve got four brothers and the youngest is Joel. He said to me after the plane crash, I remember this like it happened yesterday. We’re on the phone and he’s asking me a few questions about the event and he’s a pretty quiet guy anyway, and he said, Hey, you know what? There was silence on the phone for about 10 seconds. He says, you know what, Jerry, I have no idea what to say to you right now, but all I can tell you is this. I’m here for you and if you need anything at all, you’ve got to call me. That’s probably the best thing anybody could ever say to me. They weren’t trying to explain away what happened. They weren’t trying to tell me it was going to be okay, and sometimes they’re not going to be okay, but for someone, you know what, I don’t have any words for you, but man, I love you and if you need anything from me, you better not hesitate and call or I’ll be disappointed. I think that’s probably the best thing you can say to somebody in a circumstance like that. I’m with you, I’m here. And if you need something, chances are you’re probably not going to get a call from that person saying, Hey, I need this or I need that, but to know that that person is available meant the world to me.

Dr. Cooper

That’s powerful. In terms of frequency. Was it, did he then just stop? Did he say okay, he said that, let it go and then he circled back four months later or maybe you reached out to him or did he then check in a week later, two weeks later. Hey buddy, bro, how you doing? You know, that kind of stuff. And again, the answer for you is different than somebody else, but just curious for you specifically, how did that play itself out?

Jerry Schemmel

Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly what he did. I think he, he probably knowing Joel, he probably put it in his calendar. Saying I’m going to call Jerry once a week. He’s a much more organized guy than I am very, very successful real estate developer these days. But yeah, I think he probably made a point to call me once a week. And I would say probably for the first year after that, and it was the same conversation. It was short. It was, you know how you’re doing, let me know what I can do for ya. He lived in Florida, you know, if you want to come down and get away, you come stay with me, whatever that looked like at the time. And then after a year or so he stopped doing it as often, which is good. That was healthy. I didn’t need to have that all the time. But he was very, very considerate that way. And you know, I’m looking at that sort of pattern today, Brad and I think it would be easier, I think sending somebody a text once a week would be incredibly meaningful for somebody that went through something like I did. Hey, how you doing? What can I do for you? Typing a text takes 10 seconds to do it. And it means the world to people.

Dr. Cooper

But really avoiding the, here’s the wisdom of the day and just literally saying, I’m here. I’m just, here.

Jerry Schemmel

Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. And again, when I say people, you know, they say these other things, they want to help. They come from the right intention, the right motivation, they want to help you out. But sometimes those words don’t do that. Um, and trying to explain things away or it happened for this reason or you’ll find that out or you’re going to do something really big now. And I think that puts more pressure on people than it does take pressure off. So yeah, just being there for people and letting people know that you’re there for them I think is really important.

Dr. Cooper

How about the folks that were proximity-wise right there with you? So your wife, Diane or other family members, friends that live next door, you’re seeing at work. How about those folks? Cause that was, your brother was far away. He would check in, you know, once a week. But how about the folks you were seeing every single day? Were there things that, and you don’t need to attach names to it, but were there things that were very helpful and other things, not so much?

Jerry Schemmel

Yeah. I think there were, I know some helpful things were. I worked in, at the time of the crash, a basketball association and the commissioner of the league died in the crash that I was in, and we had this, this woman who was a receptionist for an office. It was a small operation. We had eight people, but she was kinda the receptionist. And when I’d come to work after the crash, she wouldn’t even say anything and she would just go hug me. I walked in the door, she would hug me, she’d go back to her seat and sit down and start working again. I walk away and we never said anything to each other. But see that nonverbal communication like, you know, I’m so glad to see you. I’m so glad you’re here. I love you. And I’m sitting right here if you need me type of look on her face and feel to that hug.

Jerry Schemmel

So, those simple things like that I think meant a lot. I think my wife, to be honest, was the one that was obviously closer to me than anybody struggled to try to figure that out. You know, what do I do with this guy? He’s half crazy. He’s gone through post-trauma stress disorder. He survived this plane crash, he can’t sleep, he doesn’t want to talk to me. So I think she really struggled trying to figure things out and that ended up being silence basically because she didn’t know what to say. So, I think when that happens you get in some trouble. And now these days the roles are kind of reversed. My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer and she had surgery, double mastectomy and I’ve kind of taken care of her now. And so I think about the back in the days of the plane crash Coop when the role was reversed. Now it’s like you don’t know what can I give for you? What can I do for you? You know, I don’t know what to do. I can do the dishes because I know you can’t. But what else can I do to help you? And sometimes there isn’t an answer. The answer is nothing. But the fact that you’re asking the question I think means a lot.

Dr. Cooper

That’s great advice. All right, let’s take it one level deeper now. So we’ve said that people that are far away, the people that are right there and now for you were there, and again, disclaimer, for everybody listening, what worked for Jerry is different for everybody, but were there things that you, steps that you took personally, we’ll talk about your faith here in a minute, but were there other things that you did personally that you think retrospectively helped you through that as well?

Jerry Schemmel

Yeah, yeah. There were a couple things. Number one was I finally came to the realization that people were just trying to help so you can’t ignore them and you can’t just blow them off. And, I thinkI took an attitude of thankfulness at that point. You know what these people are, cause I didn’t respond to anybody for months at a time. I literally was in my little cocoon mental shell. And I finally realized these people were reaching out to you to help you. So let’s at least acknowledge that. So the fact that, I finally came to realize that these people are doing this because they care. So let’s appreciate that. That was one for me.

Jerry Schemmel

Secondly, and it’s a little bit different was I thought it was important to do something physically again. And I got back on my bicycle, I really did. I’ve done triathlons and you know, just sort of as an amateur and did them for fun and stay in shape and always loved the cycling aspect of it. And I was like, you know what, let’s do something to replace what’s been taken away from you and all this emotional trauma. And that was do some kind of physical exercise. And it was for me getting back on a bicycle, it really was great therapy for me to do something. And that therapy is, and that answer is not a bicycle itself, but it’s, you know, go work out or go walk or you know, do something physically to occupy your body and your mind. It made a huge difference for me.

Dr. Cooper

I love it. You see that thread in a lot of the recommendations that are out there. So it’s interesting to hear you say that directly. Anything else along those lines? Was there like sleep for example, sleep had to be so difficult to get your arms around because every time you closed your eyes you were back there. Any things you discovered through that process?

Jerry Schemmel

Not really. You know, I still have nightmares about the crash probably once or twice a month. I have that crazy dream again. But yeah, sleep was a real difficult thing. It alluded me for a long, but as time passed away from that plane crash the sleep started to come back a little bit. But there is one thing that is really interesting to me is, is some advice my dad gave me and my dad was a very quiet guy, didn’t say much at all, but when he did speak, you had some wisdom and he’s a world war II vet. Never talked about that. Anyway, he said one day, and I think this is probably six or seven months after the crash. And he said to me, Jerry, just keep moving.

Jerry Schemmel

And I was like, okay, let me think about that. And, that’s all he said. And to me that was, you know what, you don’t need to sit on the couch and watch TV why don’t you get up and do something and you don’t need to wallow in self pity. Just kinda keep yourself moving and occupied and eventually things have kind of worked themselves out. Will it be great? Will it be the way it was before the crash? No, of course that’s not going to happen. But you know what, just keep moving and things will take care of themselves. And man, that guy was right. He was always right about that stuff.

Dr. Cooper

Nice. Nice. I love that. All right. So your faith played a significant role for you through all of this. Love to have you talk a little bit about that and then as part of that, talk to us a little bit about why then? You were about 29 at the time. Why not five years prior, 10 years prior? What happened?

Jerry Schemmel

Yeah. I can answer that in one word, Brad, it was ego. Honestly I was a broadcaster and thought I was a hot shot. Thought I was going to be the next Al Michaels or somebody and that occupied my life. That was the priority. That was number one. And I had no spiritual foundation whatsoever. I went to mass to the Catholic church growing up once in a while, not every Sunday, when my parents would make me go. And so I never had any spiritual foundation whatsoever before the plane crashed. So for me it was always, you know, whatever comes along, I can fix it. It’s about me. It’s not, not some high power. And, I think that after the plane crash, I got to the point where I couldn’t do this stuff on my own anymore.

Jerry Schemmel

All the things I had normally done to work myself out of any kind of funk I was in. Smaller plane crash and moving on up, I could do it. I’ve worked my way through college and law school. My parents never gave me a penny for any of it and I tell that to people and they are like, no way. I never got a dime from my parents. And I worked my way through and borrowed money and was an athlete and I just could do everything on my own. And then after that plane crash, I got the point where I just couldn’t do this by myself anymore. I was crippled and I was knocked down. I could not pick myself back up. And that’s really when it turned for me.

Jerry Schemmel

I remember sitting in a chair in our old apartment we had in Denver, 10 months after crash and Diane was working. Thank God because I was unemployed, while I’m in self pity and depression at home and just sat down in a chair and realize that for the first time in 30 years, 29 at the time of the crash now 30, that I’ve been knocked down and I could not take myself back up. And it was this simple. I said a simple prayer just said, God, would you please come into my life. And the prayer was not this save my marriage, which is falling apart or to get a new job or come out of depression. It was God, just give me something to hold onto here cause I cannot do this by myself anymore. And when I said that prayer and some people, and some of your listeners here, might think it’s corny, but man, I swear to you, it happened this way when I said that something came over me.

Jerry Schemmel

It wasn’t an audible voice and it wasn’t a physical sensation, but it was this overwhelming feeling of contentment, and that peace that kinda hit me, that said, because of what I had done and more importantly, the ally I had just invited in my life that eventually, not that moment or the next day or the next week. But eventually I knew I was going to win every single battle. I knew it wouldn’t be easy. I knew it wouldn’t be quick, but I knew that I was gonna win because I had the right ally fighting that fight for me. And that was step one in my faith journey. That was, I can pinpoint the day and the moment.

Dr. Cooper

Wow. Wow. And then that helped create some additional momentum going forward it sounds like.

Jerry Schemmel

Yes, absolutely. And after that prayer and some more of it, I got to the point where I stop asking this question all the time. And that was why this plane crash? Why was I onboard? Why did I survive? Why was this little boy sitting right in front of me, he’s 18 months old, perfectly healthy and happy in one of the moment next moment hit the ground. He’s dead. I mean, why this little boy, why my boss, seven rows behind. Why 112 people that died in the crash? Why, why, why every single day. And after I said that prayer and that sort of peace and contentment came over me, I stopped asking that question so often because I knew it would never make sense. It would never make sense this side of heaven. And I just remember feeling it was too distant, that I’m never going to get the answer to that question. So once that happened, I stopped asking the question so often and didn’t drive myself crazy trying to find the answer.

Dr. Cooper

Interesting. Very, very interesting man. Thanks so much for talking to us through this. This is fantastic. Everybody responds differently to personal tragedy, but if you at age 60 were to go back and sit down with a 30 year old Jerry Schemmel in the midst of the darkest moments, what would you tell him?

Jerry Schemmel

I think a couple things. Number one, unlike what a lot of people say, it’s not going to be okay. It’s never going to go away. A plane crash is a scar. It’s a wound. I shouldn’t say a scar, a wound that will never completely heal, but that’s okay. I think it was meant to be that way. I think it’s part of my life now. So I think my first piece of advice is, you know what? It’s going to be hard, but it’s never going to go away. You just have to deal with it, it’s going to be a part of your life and a big part of your life moving forward. The second thing would be everybody else, Jerry has a plane crash too. Brad Cooper has one. I don’t know what it is, but our listeners have one. Everyvadult that we’re ever going to meet has their own plane crash. Whether it’s as bad as what I went through, it might be worse than I went through, but everybody’s has their own plane crash. So you’re not alone in this thing. This is called life. Life’s all about plane crashes. And, I think that would be my second piece of advice. Number one is, you know what? You’re gonna have to deal with it. You’re gonna have to step up and be a big boy. And secondly, everybody else is going through the same thing.

Dr. Cooper

Powerful. Powerful. All right. Just a couple of summary wrap ups here. Many of our listeners obviously are health and wellness coaches and they’re not counselors. They’re not trying to be counselors. They know there’s a difference here between coaching and counseling, but they’re coming alongside folks who may have gone through something like this. You’ve given a lot of advice already. Any other advice that you might give to them knowing that role that they’re in?

Jerry Schemmel

Yeah, I think if you’re in that kind of role when you’re trying to come alongside somebody, I think it’s good to let them know that, whether that’s a quick text, once a week like how I described earlier. But you know, it’s one thing to say something to people like, Hey, you know what? I’m here for you, but never follow up on it or say, you know what, I’m going to pray for you and never pray for that person. I think that’s awfully counter productive, so I think one, be available for somebody and to follow up with that one and let that person know that you’re not just talking, that you’re about action and not about words. I think that that makes all the difference. When somebody hears that you care about them, that’s one thing. When somebody sees that you care about them, that’s a whole other world.

Dr. Cooper

Hmm. Good stuff. Good stuff. All right, my friend. Any final words of wisdom you want to share?

Jerry Schemmel

Only that the Rockies are going to bounce back.

Dr. Cooper

They’re going to follow the Nuggets pattern here, huh?

Jerry Schemmel

Yes, yes. There we go. No, I don’t. I don’t think so. I think we covered it. I’ve really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Cooper

Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thank you my friend.

Dr. Cooper

Pretty powerful stuff, wasn’t it? Thank you so much to Jerry Schemmel for his willingness to be so transparent. Folks I’ve gotten a chance to know this guy pretty well over the years and he doesn’t mess with some artificial public persona. He’s the real deal. If you’d like to follow him on Twitter, you can do so at J Schemmel6. It’s J, S C H E M M E L and then the number six, so @JSchemmel6. You can catch me @Catalyst2Thrive as well if you’d like. The next fast track certification will be upon us before you know it, February 8th and 9th in Colorado, the Denver area where the course takes place is usually beautiful in February. However, if you’re a skier or if you’ve been wanting to come to Colorado to ski, the mountains typically have great snow in February, so if you want to plan a couple extra days around the certification to enjoy it might be good timing.

Dr. Cooper

Details about that as well as the distance learning option are available at catalystcoachinginstitute.com or as I always mentioned, reach out to us anytime, results@catalystcoachinginstitute.com. In the meantime, let’s go get better and let’s help those around us do the same. Jerry was kind enough to give us a closer look behind the curtain today. Sometimes better has nothing to do with a motivational speech. Sometimes it just means showing we care that we’re there in simple heartfelt ways. Thanks again for joining us. This is Dr. Bradford Cooper signing off. Make it a great rest of your day and I’ll speak with you soon. On the next episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching Podcast.