Chief Medical Officer for Virgin Pulse Discusses the Future of Wellness

Brad Cooper

Welcome to the latest episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching Podcast. My name is Brad Cooper and I’ll be your host. And on this week’s episode, we’re pleased to have Dr. Rajiv Kumar, the chief medical officer for Virgin Pulse join the show. Dr. Kumar joined Virgin Pulse in 2016, following the company’s acquisition of ShapeUp an employee wellbeing company he founded in 2006. As CEO of ShapeUp, he led the growth of the company from a two person dorm room startup to a global company with over 100 employees, 800 customers and 2 million participants around the world. Currently, Dr. Kumar’s responsibilities also include overseeing the Virgin Pulse science advisory board and the organization’s analytics team. He’ll share a little of his story about dropping out of medical school at Brown university to start this company, but don’t worry. He did return. And he brings his unique background and experience to our discussion about the roles of technology, personal coaching, and the concept of radical simplicity to our daily pursuit of better. One key item for the coaches in the audience, the early registration deadline for the Rocky Mountain Coaching Retreat and Symposium, which is going to be in Estes Park September 6th to the 8th closes literally this week. So this thing is a big discount if you get in under that early one. So if you’re planning to join us, please don’t miss that opportunity to save some money. Details are available at CatalystCoachingInstitute.com under the retreat tab, or you can reach out to us anytime at Results@CatalystCoachingInstitute.com. Thanks everybody now on with the latest episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching Podcast.

Brad Cooper

Dr. Kumar, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

Well, thanks for having me.

Brad Cooper

I love your story. The audience knows your, your general bio, but could you give us just kind of a two minute overview of how you went from college student, med student, then decided to take a break from that started your own company back to med school. And now you’re the chief medical officer of one of the top companies in the world.

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

I started medical school back in 2005. And about that time I became very interested in prevention. And specifically I became interested in the prevention of obesity and obesity related illnesses, uh, and, uh, you know, working with patients in the clinic, I realized that the healthcare system didn’t really have many tools and it wasn’t really set up to help people with lifestyle change and with chronic condition reversal, everything we were learning in medical school and everything that I saw in clinics and in hospitals was about treating people and managing conditions. It was not about preventing and reversing. So that was my kind of, I need to, I need to do something about this. You know, two thirds of us are overweight and obese. 90% of us are not exercising on a regular basis, we have an epidemic of diabetes and heart disease and so forth. And, um, we can, we can prevent this. We have the tools and the know-how, but for some reason it hasn’t made it into the healthcare system. So I created a program, uh, locally called ShapeUp Rhode Island, which was about activating people to exercise and eat healthy. And the kind of unique element to it was that it was a social program. What I had learned from my interactions with patients was that the people who didn’t try to change their behavior alone, but did it with their friends or family, their colleagues were much more likely to succeed. Uh, they had accountability, they had a little bit of peer pressure, it made it more fun. And so that was the kind of twist. And so I created this program that was about people forming teams and those teams competing with each other, uh, to exercise and lose weight. Kind of fast forward, you know, we started off as a community program, caught the attention of employers and before long became an employee well-being program. And then eventually it started to grow into much more than a physical activity and weight loss challenge, and really turn into a comprehensive employee health and wellbeing platform. I did, you know, I left medical school with my co-founder for a couple of years to build the company. Then the med school called us and said, Hey, you gotta come back or we’re not going to save your spot for you anymore. And so we said, all right, we’ll go back. And we finished our degrees. And then we came back to the company full-time because we got really passionate about kind of using technology to reach a lot of people around the world. And that’s really what we’ve been doing ever since.

Brad Cooper

Very nice. Love it. Knowing what you know about health and wellness at this point, what would you have liked to know back then that might’ve tweaked some of your strategies?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

Yeah, I think we’ve learned a lot, uh, you know, it’s been, it’s been probably a 14 year journey for us. Uh, one area that I think has really come to the forefront in the last couple of years, especially in the kind of employer space, but I think even more broadly in society is really the role that mental health plays in our physical health and or in our inability to change our physical health. And so that’s something we had not really kind of focused on. Uh, you know, certainly the social element definitely had positive implications for mental wellbeing. We know that that’s one of the big levers to pull, you know, loneliness, isolation really leads to, you know, certain forms of mental illness. And so bringing people together, that’s always a common thread whenever you talk about how to help people kind of be, you know, healthy, uh, from a mental perspective. But I think we would have focused more intentionally on that and thought about mindfulness and resilience and meditation, and really kind of how we can build, you know, kind of a mental foundation that will then make the physical activity and healthy eating and everything else we want people to do easier. And so that’s really, I think one of the big kind of ahas for me over the last decade has really been the key role that mental health plays in all of this.

Brad Cooper

Excellent, great advice. Yeah. You and I met at the conference six weeks ago or so, and I’m very impressed by what you shared in terms of that critical integration of the technology. It’s obviously has a huge role to play, but also the personal touch when it comes to real true behavior change. Can you expand on that thought a little bit for the current or, or maybe even future health and wellness coaches that might be listening to this?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

Well, I think we’re, we have a situation now where there are so many different programs and resources that are available to people, especially through their employer, but even more broadly in the consumer world. And there’s a high cognitive load. It’s very overwhelming, you know, where do I start? Who do I listen to? Uh, which programs do I choose? How do I get everything connected and, you know, get my data in one place and have sort of one journey. And that’s really what we’re working on at Virgin Pulse and where I think the whole industry needs to go. It’s kind of radical simplicity. How do we create a roadmap for people? How do we aggregate and unify all of these different resources, put them together in one place and then kind of personalized experience. So we’re taking everything we know about a person, uh, their interests, their goals, uh, their health assessment resolves their biometric results. Any of the data we’re collecting from their wearables, if we’re able to access their medical and pharmaceutical claims or their electronic medical record and taking all that information and then using it to kind of promote the right program to the right person at the right time, through the right modality. And I think that’s where we need to go. And I think it’s going to take many years to get there, but, uh, we need to help people to navigate this very complicated ecosystem. Otherwise they get stuck and they don’t even try or they get lost and then we lose them. So, you know, I think, I think that’s one, one thing that all of us in this space have to keep in mind is how are we creating the pathways and reducing friction for the people we’re trying to help in this very complicated space.

Brad Cooper

I love that phrase, radical simplicity. On the coach’s side of things, if I’m hearing you right, you’re saying they could be the one coming alongside that person, whether it’s an independent coach, that’s working with somebody who happens to have a program like yours at their work or something that’s integrated into their employer, that coach can maybe be that guide or that person to come along beside them and help them navigate that. Is that kind of what you’re getting into?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so as a company, we historically were so focused on being a digital software platform and we never employed people to do the coaching and the navigating. Over time, we realized that that was a big mistake we made that, that health is personal and it’s complex and, you know, mobile applications and websites alone, aren’t enough to help people accomplish these really hard goals and navigate this really complex system. And so that’s why we actually acquired a handful of companies that have coaching and condition management services live, you know, humans that are either coaching via telephone, via video, via chat, email, whatever. And I think so it’s really high tech and the high touch. And so the high tech is there. We have the platforms and we can connect all these programs, but the human navigation piece I think is so critical. And I think that’s where our coaches can come in and, um, you know, they can, they can kind of be on that journey, promoting the right tools, the people monitoring them. You know, there’s so much information now that coaches can access at their fingertips. And we’re building tools that will allow coaches to see things like medical claims, uh, gaps in care that we can extract from those medical claims, the AI based recommendations for what this person should work on next, or, you know, what kind of suggestion you might make for them. You know, all those tools are not coming to bear where coaches, aren’t just kind of having to make it up on their own or chart their own path. They’re going to have kind of really smart recommendations and access to data that will help them be a better coach. And then we also have tools that will allow the coach to interface with the members directly through the platform. So, you know, like you said, be along the journey, you know, be on their team, you know in an exercise challenge, you know, uh, uh, pick a healthy habit for them to track, you know, send them a motivational message through our platforms. Maybe even give them a reward or positive recognition for something they did right through the application. And that’s where I, I see this going and kind of a seamless interface between the humans and the, in the software.

Brad Cooper

Excellent advice. If you were sitting down with a coach and giving them guidance on what could they do to prepare themselves their career, their background, their toolbox, to be in a good place in these things that you’re talking about over the next five, 10 years, any, any words of wisdom?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

I think everybody’s should learn a little bit about artificial intelligence and machine learning. You know, we hear about those buzz words all the time, you know, in the media, but they’re coming fast into healthcare and to wellbeing, you know, we’re already seeing examples of, you know, kind of entry-level coaching being done by chat bots and reserving the more complicated cases for humans, um, you know, taking in all this data and parsing it and coming up with recommendations, I think, you know, while the coaches aren’t going to necessarily need to be experts in artificial intelligence, they should have some level of understanding of what it is, how it works and how it’s transforming health and healthcare. So I think that that would be one advice. It gets kind of technology that’s coming and it will certainly affect the coach’s role and coaches experience. And I think, you know, to, to be aware of it, to know what’s coming and to understand it better, uh, will make the coach much more effective.

Brad Cooper

Shift back over to technology. What do you see coming down that highway in the next five to 10 years? Or maybe I should say the next five to 10 months?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

Right. Well, you know, I mentioned, you know, AI based coaching, you know, I’ll give you an example. There’s an app called Woebot, uh, W O E bot. And it’s a, um, basically a virtual therapist and it’s designed to help people with anxiety, depression, um, other mental health issues, and it’s highly effective. You know, it doesn’t certainly doesn’t replace a human therapist, but, um, it augments it and it’s people are finding a lot of value in being able to kind of talk to a bot and, and with no judgment. And so they tell the bot things that they wouldn’t otherwise tell a human and, you know, the bots, giving them tools and recommendations and resources. And it’s sort of like this impartial judge, uh, impartial, um, sort of friend, um, you know, on the platform. So those types of things are coming. And I think it’s going to be a long time before they’re as good as humans if ever, but, you know, I think that’s some of the technology. I think that, you know, frankly, it’s exciting because it’s going to allow us to scale, reach more people, and it’s going to allow coaches to focus on kind of the more complicated, more clinical issues.

Brad Cooper

What are some of the downsides of technology in the whole health and wellness industry right now, or what do you see as potential that could develop in the years to come?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

Well, I think the flip side is that we become too reliant on the technology and we lose that human element. And, you know, we see so many examples of where the technology just fails to be empathetic, uh, fails to really understand the context, fails, to understand, you know, what kind of emotion somebody might be going through. And then it gives the wrong response or, or promote something that is really kind of inappropriate. So I think that’s a downside is that the pendulum swings too far in one direction. And we say, you know, we’re going to automate everything and digital is the way to go because it’s cheaper and it’s more scalable. Um, but, but the reality is the answer is somewhere in between. We have to find the right balance of human intervention when necessary and digital intervention when, when easy. So, you know, I think, I think that’s what we have to watch out for. And I’m definitely an advocate for making sure that we did not lose the humanity and health and wellbeing because it’s such a critical component.

Brad Cooper

Now, this question I wasn’t planning to ask you, but I’m just curious as a physician, how do you see most effective integration between the family practice physician or the individual’s physician and what’s happening on the health and wellness front with an employer or with a coach or the combination of those?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

I think it’s, we’re, we’re a ways off from really seeing tight integration there. I think it needs to happen. Um, certainly we’ve seen primary care clinics kind of revolutionize and rethink their model. And we were definitely starting to see coaches and other types of lifestyle tools and resources be available directly through the primary care clinic. Um, one of the things we’re looking at is how can we integrate with on-site clinics that employers have? So, you know, most of the large employers we work with have onsite clinics. Um, and so in those clinics use electronic medical records. So can we interface with those electronic medical records to be able to take in data and information and use that to personalize the experience? And then can we also give the providers tools so they can interact with their patients through the platform and monitor and, you know, the progress, encourage them and be a part of the lifestyle journey, not just the once a year checkup journey or the treatment journey. And I think that’s really, what’s exciting is when we start to blur the lines and this can feel like a more cohesive, seamless ecosystem.

Brad Cooper

I love that dream. That would be fantastic. You mentioned in your talk, how you got your start was the social side, the social connection impact that that has on me as an individual in my progress, if someone’s listening that is interested in trying to promote health and wellness in their communities, any recommendations or encouragement you might have for them?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

Well, I don’t think the social piece requires technology. And in fact, in the early days of my program ShapeUp Rhode Island, it was very much about convening people in person in groups. And we hosted thousands of events all across the state of Rhode Island and, you know, yoga, Pilates and walks and runs. And, you know, we would just sort of announce where we were going to be and invite people to come and kind of spread virally. And, you know, we would have hundreds of people showing up every town and city that we went to for these, for these local events. And it was that social piece that was so critical. Their friends, family, coworkers would say, Hey, I’m going to this, can you come with me? And when they got there, they, you know, they were with other people that were kindred spirits and in the same boat as them. And it felt that sort of, you know, being a part of something bigger than themselves. So I think tapping into that social dynamic is the most important part. You know, we as humans, we’re inherently social and behavior change is not happening in a vacuum. And if you don’t, if you don’t kind of bring your social network along with you, you’ll never truly be successful because you’re in an environment that won’t be conducive to the change you’ve made. So you’ll lose a bunch of weight. You come back to work and now it’s, you know, muffin Monday, bagel Tuesday, donut Friday, right. But if your coworkers know that, you know, and they’re part of your journey there, they’re not going to do that. They’re going to say, Hey, let’s have fruit. You know, let’s, let’s go for a walk at lunch. You know? So I think, you know, the people around us can be detrimental to our journey, but if we invite them to be a part of it, then suddenly we flip the script and every, everything changes in our environment becomes much more positive. So I think that’s true for every individual. And the more we can think about that social context, uh, the more we can help people. I think this starts to get into social determinants of health as well. It’s not just about people supporting you, but it’s about access to resources and so forth.

Brad Cooper

Well said. Evidence-based, one of the things that we try to focus at nauseum on, on this podcast is avoid the fads, stop chasing the headlines, make sure what you’re doing as a coach or as an individual or a wellness director is evidence-based. Any advice for the, obviously you are, obviously your organization is at the big role that you play for the organization. Any advice for the person listening to this and saying, you know, I want to be that way. It’s just, I see all this stuff on Twitter. I see all these headlines in the paper and I don’t know what else to do. Any guidance you can provide along those lines?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

One of the people that we work with very closely, his name his Dr. David Katz, and he’s an expert in lifestyle medicine and nutrition specifically. And he talks about how, you know, every week, every month, there’s a new study that contradicts what we know to be true about how to lead a healthy lifestyle. And what you have to do is you have to look at the totality, the evidence. And in fact, we have all of the evidence we need to know what it takes to lead a healthy lifestyle. We actually know what a healthy diet looks like. We know what is good for us. And so rather than chasing the latest headline or the latest article, let’s go back to the North star of the body of evidence and what it says. And he’s actually created an organization called the true health initiative, which is people from all around the world, experts in health and nutrition. And they may be experts in their own field, maybe in the paleo diet, or maybe in some other aspect of nutrition. But what they’ve done is said, here are all the things we collectively agree on. Here’s a shared knowledge and shared understanding, and that’s what we want to promote out to the world as a North star. And so I would encourage people to plug into organizations like the true health initiative, um, because they’re reminding us that we already know what to do. For some reason we don’t want to do it. We want to keep kind of trying to hack it and find ways around it or think we’re somehow different. And you know, that’s why every month there’s a new diet and somebody says, okay, now we need to do intermittent fasting. Now we need to go gluten-free and you actually don’t need to do those things. We already know what the roadmap looks like. It’s just a matter of taking our medicine. And for some reason, people want to run away from it. So I think that’s the most important thing is to find that North star and then to continue to stay true to it.

Brad Cooper

Good advice for life in general. All right. You just put a billboard up in the busiest street in America, has something to do with health and wellness. What’s your message?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

Well, you know, I think it’s probably along the theme of, of what I’ve been talking about, which is, you know, the answer is, is, you know, to, to good health is, you know, the people around us. So the road to good health involves those people. So, you know, it would say something like, you know, the secret to health is your friends and family, you know, and probably will find more artful or interesting way to say that, but get healthy together, I think is really the answer. Too many people try to go it alone. And, you know, going in alone is not a recipe for success for the vast majority of us. And so, um, finding ways and structures and tools to do it together, I think is the answer.

Brad Cooper

You did, you did pretty well off the top of your head there. Let’s turn the mirror to you. What, how, if you don’t mind me asking, what is your personal wellness generally look like right now? What are you working on? And how’s it gone?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

Yeah. So my personal wellness journey is ongoing as always, um, you know, somebody who is sort of a spokesperson for health and wellbeing and, you know, an executive of a health and wellbeing company. You know, I feel a personal responsibility to go kind of above and beyond what I might normally do. Um, you know, I have to walk the talk. I see so many people in healthcare that, that, that kind of say, you know, do, as I say, not as I do, and, you know, I don’t want to be that person. So I’m constantly trying new things. I’m constantly trying to keep the variety going. Um, I work out, you know, four or five times a week. I have a personal trainer. I try to work out with a couple of times a week. Uh, I’ve really been focused on trying to run more running has never been something that came easy to me, and I never considered myself a runner and I’m trying to turn into a runner. And so I’ve been running and I use the same tools as everybody else, you know, certainly I use the Virgin Pulse tools, but I augment that with different apps and different devices that I find useful. Um, the other thing I’ve been trying to incorporate more into my lifestyle is, is mindfulness based stress reduction. And so I’ve been trying to meditate and, um, that’s not easy for me to sit still and to calm my mind and not get distracted. And so that’s something I’ve been really focusing on

Brad Cooper

If you don’t mind sharing any tips along those lines, because I think a lot of the folks listening have that same struggle. You’re, you’re a busy guy. You’re constantly moving. You’ve got a lot on your plate, I’m the same way. So I’d love any tips you’ve got in that area of what maybe is starting to help you turn the corner to make that more of a priority and actually staying with it.

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

I think it’s kind of the, the understanding that it doesn’t take a lot to get started, you know, in our work, we talk about baby steps or tiny habits and BJ Fogg’s, you know, um, you know, just do something small is better than nothing. And those small behaviors naturally grow over time because you build toward success, momentum, and you do something small and you feel good about it. You feel accomplished. And then the next time you do a little bit more. And so, you know, whenever I’m trying to start a new behavior, I start really small because I know that if I say, okay, I’m going to go run five miles in my first few days into running, you know, I’m going to fail and then I’m not going to feel good about myself and I’m not going to want to go back through it. So if I were to start running from scratch, I would do something like a couch to 5k program, and I would start really small and I would grow over time. And that’s what I’ve been doing with mindfulness based stress reduction and, you know, some other physical activity pursuits. And then generally I’ve experimented with dozens of different apps that are out there and tried to find the one that resonates with me, you know, which one has the voice that I like, the tone, the music, whatever it might be. Um, you know, so for, for, for running, I use an app called active and, you know, there’s dozens, hundreds of running apps out there active is the one that I like. And I found a trainer on Aaptiv that I, you know, resonates with me. And so I follow all of his workouts and, you know, they motivate me, um, took me a while to find that right one, but once I found it, you know, it’s the right place for me. Um, for mindfulness meditation, I’ve been using calm and Headspace, and those are two tools that work for me. And then of course, you know, in our application, we have lots of other tools that we make available, like will, uh, which is another great tool available to employees for mindfulness and meditation. So I think it’s about experimentation. It’s about kind of finding the right fit for you. And then it’s about starting really small and not being embarrassed by that. You know, there’s nothing wrong with sitting for 60 seconds and meditate, you know, check it off. You did it better than zero. And, you know, next time you can do two minutes and, you know, it builds over time and that’s how behavior works.

Brad Cooper

Wow. Good stuff. You get interviewed a lot. What’s one question you’re surprised nobody seems to ask?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

Well, I think, um, that’s a good question. You asked one that not a lot of people ask, which is, you know, are you walking the talk? I think that’s good. You know, I think we have to be walking the talk. I think the, probably the one question that people don’t ask is if we have all the answers, why isn’t it working, right. If we know how to change the behavior, if we know what a healthy diet looks like, and we know how to prevent chronic conditions or even reversed many chronic conditions, why is America so unhealthy? You know, why are, why do we have an obesity epidemic, a diabetes epidemic and so forth? And, you know, I think it’s a hard one to answer because it’s so multifactorial. Um, I think it, it’s sorta like, you know, there’s this massive tide of societal change advertising, unhealthy messaging shortcuts technology, you know, that’s causing us to be sedentary, over abundance of availability of food and at high caloric food. And so the things that we’re doing kind of like small changes in the face of this massive tsunami that’s coming and so at us. And so it feels almost like it’s feudal, but this kind of thing we’re talking about has to become a movement and has to lead to societal change. And we’ve seen this happen. I mean, we did this with smoking cessation, you know, over a 30 year period where we changed society and became, you know, smoking was like a norm and we changed the social norms that smoking was not considered healthy. And we did that through the idea of secondhand smoke, where, you know, fine, you can smoke if you want, but you can’t harm me. And the people around you, you know, with that secondhand smoke. And we need to get to that point where healthy living has that sort of social, um, kind of philosophy. And we change the social norms. Um, so it’s not okay to take the elevator to the second floor if you’re able to walk. Um, and it’s not okay to dump a bunch of donuts in the, in the workroom, you know, because you didn’t want to keep them in your house. And so you’re telling your coworkers, right. You know, so I think that’s, what’s going to change. And I think we do it one step in one workplace, one office at a time. And, uh, and I see, I see it coming. You can see it in the explosion of consumer applications in all of these workout classes, you know, fitness studios, boutique workouts that people are doing. You see it in all the mobile apps and people buying Peloton, you know, it’s starting to happen. And, uh, I think, I think we’re going to see a pendulum shift sometime in the next decade. And, you know, you see also the advent of like meatless food with beyond and impossible foods and just food. And I think people are starting to say, yeah, we need to change our diet. We need to change our physical activity. And, you know, we need to take, take control of it ourselves. And I think that that’s happening.

Brad Cooper

Nice, nice, good stuff. Well, I really appreciate you joining us last question, just wide open, any final words of wisdom you’d like to share with the, with the audience today?

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

I think what keeps me going, because this is hard. Um, you know, and it feels like it’s never ending and it’s not. Um, you know, the one thing that I do and that we do at Virgin Pulse is we constantly stop and we take stock of the successes that we’ve had. And in particular, we look at the success stories of the people that we’re helping. And we actually ask them to tell us, you know, record a small video on your phone and just tell us, you know, what changes you’ve made in your lifestyle and what successes you’ve had and what the journey has been like. And then we just sit around and we watch them. It’s incredibly powerful. And it, and it kind of reminds us why we do what we do. Um, the story, you know, the story is so powerful more than the data points of how much weight people lose or how much exercise they do. You know, it’s the stories that stick with us and motivate us. So I always kind of take time every few weeks, once a month to kind of reconnect to my purpose. And that is what keeps me going. It keeps me motivated and it keeps me hopeful. So I’m sure many people do that, but I think sometimes we forget to stop and do that. And I think that’s something that all of us in this industry need to do.

Brad Cooper

Great way to wrap up Dr. Kumar. I appreciate it so much. Thanks for taking the time.

Dr. Rajiv Kumar

Thank you.

Brad Cooper

Get healthy together. Radical simplicity. The role of mental health and healthy change physical health. No wonder Dr. Kumar’s had such an impact in the world of wellness, both in the startup and the corporate world. Very well done. Great to have him. Thank you again for joining us. I’m told that those of you have taken that extra step to actually subscribe to the podcast are making a big difference. It continues to ramp up. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Again, early registration deadline for the Rocky Mountain Coaching Retreat and Symposium closes this week. So if that’s on your radar, don’t delay, jump into that thing as soon as you can. And if you’re thinking about pursuing the wellness coach certification, we have a fast track event coming up, both in New Jersey on the East coast and Colorado in August, and then obviously the distance learning options available anytime. For those who are looking to pursue the national board exam through the NBHWC, keep in mind, our students do have access to our complimentary study sessions that help you prepare for that. So we really do everything we can to get you ready for that. All the details, and much more obviously available on the new website at CatalystCoachingInstitute.com. Feel free to email us anytime with questions about your career, that board exam I was mentioning or anything else related to wellness coaching that email is Results@CatalystCoachingInstitute.com. Now let’s move forward in our pursuit of better. And I’ll speak with you soon on the next episode of the Catalyst Health and Wellness Coaching Podcast.