Understanding the Truth about the Flu Vaccine

Dr. Cooper

Welcome to the latest episode of the Catalyst Health, Wellness, and Performance Coaching podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Bradford Cooper of the Catalyst Coaching Institute. There continues to be a great deal of controversy around the flu vaccine in the world of health and wellness. So we reached out to one of the foremost experts on the topic, Dr. William Schaffner, physician and professor of infectious disease at Vanderbilt University. He doesn’t skirt any of the questions we discussed immunity, Guillain-Barre, influence for pregnant mothers and their babies, and even talk through the perspectives of people like Del Bigtree and Andrew Wakefield, who were well-known in the anti-vaccination community. And since we’re recording this toward the end of 2020, we even dig into some of the preliminary aspects of the COVID-19 vaccine, regardless of which side of the fence you find yourself sitting right now, I think you’ll find this to be an extremely valuable and insightful discussion. For those looking to pursue certifications as a health and wellness coach, your first opportunity to move in that direction in 2021 is coming up January 23rd and 24th. It is filling early all the details at CatalystCoachingInstitute.com. And we’re always happy to set up a call to answer any questions you have. So it’s Results@CatalystCoachingInstitute.com, if you want to shoot us a note. Speaking of notes, a quick side note for those who have not yet checked out the YouTube coaching channel that can be found literally at youtube.com/coachingchannel. Many of our most important interviews here on the podcast are released early as unedited video interviews there. If you’re a subscriber, it’s all free, you don’t get an email sent to you, anything like that. So if you like the idea of early access, along with our, all our brief five to seven minute feature videos we do, you may want to check it out. Again, it’s youtube.com/coachingchannel. Now let’s roll up our sleeves, push aside the rumors and the pseudoscience and listen in with Dr. William Schaffner on the latest episode of the Catalyst Health, Wellness, and Performance Coaching podcast. Dr. Schaffner, thank you for joining us on short notice. This is flu season, important time to get this message out ASAP. Uh, you are one of the experts nationwide. You come highly recommended. So thank you very much for joining us today.

Dr. Schaffner

Good to be with you, Bradford. Flu, it’s that time of the year. Again, we should all get vaccinated.

Dr. Cooper

Absolutely. And we’ll talk about that and all the, the things that people are saying like, no, here’s why I shouldn’t do it and this is, but we’ll, we’ll dive into that. Before we do let’s let’s get a baseline. Can you talk to us a little bit about the history of the flu shot vaccination, kind of where it developed from, the effect it had early on and what’s happened since that time?

Dr. Schaffner

Yeah, well, it’s had a long history. Uh, obviously influenza has been around forever and we know it comes around in our temperate zones here in a very seasonal way. It starts acting up November, December, and then usually, usually flu is fickle, but it peaks in January and February and then lingers a little bit until March and then kind of disappears, uh, during the summer. Some flu seasons start earlier some, a little bit later and probably everybody by now knows that there are many flu viruses out there and they can mutate so they can of change their coats as it were. And, uh, that’s why we have to update the flu vaccine each season. And now we have flu vaccines that protect against either three or four different influenza virus strains, because although you can have a dominant strain, there are others that kind of smolder around and can make you sick. So we’re trying to protect using a shotgun approach rather than a rifle. Experts from around the world, get together every, uh, every six months and look ahead and try to decide what’s the best composition of this flu vaccine for the Northern hemisphere, you know, during our winter, but in the Southern hemisphere during our summer, they have their winter. It’s weird, right? But they have their winter and they have their flu season during the summer. So the flu vaccine composition internationally can change twice a year. So the experts keep up with that constantly. They’re constantly getting data from all around the world, goes together to the world health organization to figure out which flu strains are out there, making people sick all the time.

Dr. Cooper

So that’s interesting. I was going to ask later about the various strains and how it seems like sometimes they say, well, we kind of missed it this year. How long has it been going on where we’re catching three or four at a time with a single vaccine?

Dr. Schaffner

Well, it’s changed over the years. Shortly after world war II, we started to create flu vaccine, started with the armed forces, of course, protect them for readiness, right? And then it went into the civilian population. We’ve had lots of changes in how we put that flu vaccine together. We’ve refined it, it has fewer and fewer and fewer side effects over time. And with added broader coverage, we’re still looking in the research laboratories, universal flu vaccine, where you could get one vaccine that would protect against the vast majority of strains. And you would only have to get vaccinated, I don’t know, once every five or 10 years science is not there yet, but you believe that a lot of people are after that holy grail, versatile flu vaccine.

Dr. Cooper

And in your perspective, just won’t hold you to this, but any guesses, are we five years out from that 20 years out from now? What, what do you think?

Dr. Schaffner

Well, I’ll quote Dr. Francis Collins. Who’s a wonderfully smart, wonderfully astute man. Who’s head of the national institutes of health. And about 10 years ago, he predicted we were five years away.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Very good. Um, all right, so let’s hit some of the questions that pop out because we’ve got a lot of folks listening that are saying, I don’t know, Brad. Um, I’ve I haven’t done my flu shot. I got sicker when I, when I took it. In fact, let’s just start with that one people that say, no, I get sick. Or when I take the flu shot, the years that I’ve done the flu vaccine, I just end up being sicker. What would be your response to them just coincidence? Or is there anything to that?

Dr. Schaffner

Well, if people are concerned about feeling ill shortly after they get the flu shot in the day or two afterwards, of course, there will be some local side effects. Every time I get my flu vaccine, my arm hurts for about three hours. Other people it lasts for a day and can even get into the second day. And there’s a small percentage, we study this all the time. About 1%, only 1% of people have some sort of feeling puny. The next day may have some headaches, aches, and pains. That’s your body’s immune system working on the vaccine. That’s not flu. You cannot get flu from the flu vaccine. That’s an old story and it’s completely incorrect. And, uh, other than that, uh, the adverse events associated with influenza vaccine are really very, very, very unusual. I mean, in the United States alone, we give about 170 million doses of influenza vaccine each year, and many, many more than that around the world. Now Brad, uh, let’s be straight here because the next thing you’re going to hear from people is, Oh, that flu vaccine that doesn’t work very well. Fair enough. You know, it’s not a perfect vaccine. Absolutely not. We, we would agree with that and its effectiveness varies. And we can go into details if you like from year to year, depending upon which flu strains are out there and how close the matches between what the experts thought could be put into the flu vaccine and the circulating viruses. Now it’s not a perfect vaccine, but I like to, uh, paraphrase that old French philosopher, Voltaire. He admonished us waiting for perfection is the great enemy of the current good. This is the best vaccine medical science can produce for us today. It prevents thousands of infections and thousands of hospitalizations each year. But if it doesn’t prevent your infection, you got the vaccine and darn two months later, you actually came down with the flu. I can tell you your flu illness was milder. You’ve got partial protection.

Dr. Cooper

Okay, and we know that, I mean, evidence is showing us clearly, it’s not just the doc wants you to feel better about it. So, it’s absolute.

Dr. Schaffner

The data show that if you had the, if you’ve had the vaccine and you’ve subsequently had the flu, your risk is much lower to being hospitalized, being in the intensive care unit and dying. What’s wrong with that. That’s pretty valuable. It’s not perfect, but it shifts the odds in our favor

Dr. Cooper

And, and not subtly, it’s not a 55 45 thing you’re saying, you know, we’re talking 95, 97, 99% effectiveness in this case.

Dr. Schaffner

Well, I wouldn’t use any of those numbers in association with influenza vaccine, complete protection against any illness varies depending upon whether you’re young and robust or older and frail. And depending on the year, it can go anywhere from its lowest 20 to 30% sometimes. But in some populations it’s as good as 70%. But in addition to this complete protection, which is a perfectly valid way of looking at it, it also provides in addition, a moderating effect on the illness that might occur, even though you had the vaccine.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. Good. Good. All right. So let’s talk overall immunity. How have some people, uh, I, I did a lot of research looking into some of the claims and concerns, that kind of stuff. A lot of people say, well, it reduces your overall immunity because your body isn’t learning to adapt to that, that flu strain naturally. Any, what, what would your comments to that be?

Dr. Schaffner

Well, I think the natural, uh, point of view is a very interesting one. It’s as though we shouldn’t modify anything, we would do, your body will take care of your appendicitis. I don’t need a surgeon. Thank you very much. Well, I’m not so sure about that. It certainly doesn’t work that way with infectious disease and infectious diseases, infectious diseases have really mortal, uh, impact on people and they can make people very, very sick. The whole point of vaccines is to reduce the impact that those infectious diseases on their own will have on us. Right? I mean, we can use measles vaccine and basically eliminate measles, right? That’s how good that vaccine is. Uh, why should anybody have to suffer a disease that they don’t have to? And influenza vaccine will, as I say, help protect you against the most severe aspects of influenza. It’s not as good a vaccine as the measles vaccine, the tetanus vaccine. We understand that, but as I say it shifts the odds in our favor

Dr. Cooper

And the immunity piece. There’s nothing to that. The fact that I’m doing, I’ve done a flu shot every year for the last 20 years plus, and that’s not a reduction of immunity. It’s a completely different, it’s almost different conversations, immunities over here and vaccine is over here.

Dr. Schaffner

Well, my immune system of course, is the system with which my body fights off infectious diseases. And the point of fact, as we get older, we know our physical bodies become more frail. I’m not the robust fellow I was at age 22 anymore. And my immune system also becomes less robust. And that’s why we actually have a couple of influenza vaccines, especially for people age 65 and older, they work a little more vigorously on the immune system, kind of kickstart the immune system and they provide additional protection for people aged 65 and older, those vaccines, the high dose vaccine and the one with an edge event in it actually work better in the older population than does the standard vaccine. So we’re trying in baby steps to improve these flu vaccines year by year.

Dr. Cooper

But it’s not having any kind of negative effect on those folks in the other aspect, flu aside, if, if I’m 72 years old and I take this a little bit stronger dose, my immunity for other things is not impacted in any way. I’m simply protected from this one strain or handful of strains.

Dr. Schaffner

You’ve got it down exactly. Correct.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. Good. Good. Um, all right. Well, how about people with, that come in with high risk things like diabetes, MS, other types of things. Is there anything about the flu shot, anything in the data that shows that might exacerbate some of those or other pre-existing conditions?

Dr. Schaffner

That, uh, no. Quite to the contrary, those people who have underlying chronic illnesses are especially vulnerable to the more severe aspects of influenza. They’re more likely to get pneumonia, which is the big complicating aspect of flu. So we urge them in particular to take advantage of flu vaccine. In fact, we’ve been talking to doctors as well as the patients in your chronic disease management, think of flu vaccine as part of that chronic disease management. Uh, you’re even more important to get vaccinated than the average citizen on everybody vaccinated, but we put special attention on you folks who have chronic underlying illnesses.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. That’s a great clarification. All right. So what about ingredients? Don’t, don’t get too deep into the weeds for us here, but in terms of what people are putting into their body, I read a lot of people saying, well, you don’t know what they’re putting into you. I don’t, I don’t want that stuff going in my body. What, what is this thing that they’re putting into our body?

Dr. Schaffner

Well, flu vaccine, uh, has pieces of the flu virus, not the whole virus, just pieces of it, right along with a number of other ingredients that just stabilize the situation so that the vaccine will actually work and will deteriorate in the vial. Right. And people are exposed to all of those little things, those extra little ingredients, none of them are toxic. If we thought they were, of course we wouldn’t use them. You know, the world health organization, wouldn’t, they wouldn’t be big on that. It’s the world health organization. They wouldn’t be recommending the use of this vaccine and they have to go through very stringent safety assessments all the time.

Dr. Cooper

Claims around carcinogens. I saw some claims of, Oh, there’s carcinogens in that vaccine. Complete bunk. Some wives tale?

Dr. Schaffner

That’s I mean, that’s, that’s simply incorrect.

Dr. Cooper

Okay, very good. All right. Let’s touch on some names that people are going to throw out. Del Bigtree, Andrew Wakefield. They have large followers, a lot of folks that would consider themselves to be anti-vaxxers are, you know, think, Oh, Del is amazing. Oh, I love him and former physician Andrew Wakefield. What advice would you give? Maybe you’re not familiar with those two specifically, but what advice would you give for people that maybe are fans or are in that camp and are listening to this and saying, I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t believe this because Andrew says this or Del says that any thoughts along those lines?

Dr. Schaffner

Well, I’ve actually, I don’t know these gentlemen personally, but I’ve been in the same room with both former Dr. Wakefield and Mr. Bigtree. They are vigorous personalities. They are charismatic. They are very articulate and they are very passionate in their skepticism about vaccines. And I happen to just think that they’re misguided, but they have a lot of people because they are, as I say, very, yeah, they’re excellent communicators, both of them. And they have a genuine appeal. And when I’ve seen them both been in the same room with them, uh, they’re not alone. They have a group of followers who are with them. And, uh, they’re, they’re powerful vigorous personalities. I just believe both those gents on the wrong track. Uh, I wish we could recruit them to the pro-vaccine field because as I say, they’re very good communicators. And, uh, I haven’t seen any of their allocations. Their concerns actually manifested in solid scientific evidence. So they raise a lot of concerns, but they don’t have any good data behind them. There’s junk science, don’t get me wrong. And they can cherry pick information such that they can put a very clever argument, but I’m afraid they’re incorrect.

Dr. Cooper

So advice for the person, again, who’s listening to this and maybe they’re big fans of Del and they’re like, no, no. What would be some ways that they could fact check or, or what would be some ways that if they’re seriously watching this and saying, I am genuinely curious, I’m not just coming in with my mind made up. I really want to know what this is all about. Are there some resources that they can go to to fact check some of the things that these two gentlemen are saying, even though they’re saying it very well to find out, is it really true? We’re big on evidence-based practices here on this channel. So what, what can these folks do to pursue the evidence and not just believe in the charisma that’s behind this?

Dr. Schaffner

Bradford, there are a number of locations where they can go, they may be wary of the CDCs data, but the CDC data is very solid. They go to an organization with which I’m affiliated the national foundation for infectious diseases. They have a website that’s absolutely objective and provides good information. The American Academy of pediatrics provides excellent information. You know, there are 80,000 pediatricians in the United States alone. They see patients and their parents from the moment the child is born. This infant child until the children are passed onto we internist. And they are dedicated to growth and development in the most healthy way for those children to think that 80,000 pediatricians either slept through that important lecture in medical school, or they’re all doofuses or they’ve all been duped or they’ve all been paid off by vaccine manufacturers please.

Dr. Cooper

Right? Yeah. Yeah, no doubt. All right. Another website, that’s very popular again. Not sure if you’ve heard it specifically, but greenmedinfo.com. They make a lot of claims. Things like a lack of efficacy. We’ve talked about that. It’s not perfect. It we’re, we’re improving each time, um, linked to autism, chronic and autoimmune diseases, those kinds of things, the person that loves that website, the person that’s quotes that website or refers people to that website, any suggestions for them to compare contrast what that’s saying. You mentioned junk science is that generally seen as junk science is that generally seen as cherry picking science. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Schaffner

Those are valid concerns and they have been raised. The, the autism, uh, issue in, in particular is a well known. Uh, and, and also the issue concerning auto-immune illnesses that comes up all the time when ever vaccines are, uh, introduced. And they are a concern of all the expert advisory committees, because there is some plausibility to the, to the auto-immunity concern, not the autism concern. That’s been put to rest many, many, many, many times.

Dr. Cooper

Let’s just say that one more time. Before we move to auto-immune, the autism studies very clearly,

Dr. Schaffner

There must be two dozen autism studies now that have put that to rest. And, um, I’m afraid that the original study was discovered to be not only faulty, but fraudulent. I mean, that’s why the doctor lost his, uh, practice medicine in the United Kingdom.

Dr. Cooper

Gotcha, so autism was off the table. That’s not even a conversation, but for anyone who seriously does their research, that’s not even a conversation anymore. Right. Okay. Very good. So let’s talk about auto-immune

Dr. Schaffner

Auto-immunity is a matter of concern with every vaccine, because is it possible this immune stimulation, whether by the disease itself or by the vaccine could stimulate an auto immune response, even if it could do that, rarely is a matter of great concern. For example, Guillain-Barre syndrome, which is a paralytic illness involving the nervous system is thought to have a major auto-immune cause. And we know what occurs in the general population have a rate of about one for every million people in the population. So there’s a background rate of this illness, including that instigated by influenza the virus itself. So the question is could influenza vaccine stimulate the occurrence of Guillain-Barre syndrome? Now, for starters, if you’re trying to assess, uh, an illness that occurs about one in a million, there are really methodological challenges. It is tough, but it has been thought that from year to year, it varies, the studies vary. There is a possibility that influenza vaccine might predispose someone to Guillain-Barre syndrome at about the same rate, one per million. But the studies, as you can imagine from year to year, either support that or say no, is there year to year variation, or is this such a difficult thing to assess that you might expect from year to year using even similar approaches couldn’t hit the target, but whatever it is, we’re cognizant of it, we make the point and anybody who has previously had Guillain-Barre syndrome within six weeks of receiving flu vaccine is recommended not to receive it. And so we try to take that into account.

Dr. Cooper

And so you’re looking at and saying, it’s, it’s one in a million to start with. So even if it increases it by a hundred percent, which we know it, doesn’t, we’re trying two in a million, have we seen any kind of trend? Is there any trend? Is this flu vaccine has come into play with any significant increase in, in Guillain-Barre or some of these other things?

Dr. Schaffner

No, not as far as we can measure. So you would think as we’re giving more flu vaccine each year, you would see a consequence for increasing Guillain-Barre syndrome and that hasn’t happened. But I keep saying, trying to measure something at one per million and see if it goes up to two or three, that’s very, very hard. Also people do look for that very carefully. And remember the impact of flu on people with its hospitalizations and deaths is so much multitudes larger than any type of potential tiny increase in Guillain-Barre syndrome that everybody I know anyway, thinks that obviously the benefits of flu vaccine vastly outweighed any potential possible increase in Guillain-Barre. Crossing the street has a risk getting into your car has a risk. We’re all adults here. That’s, there’s nothing risk-free, aspirin has a risk. We just have to understand that, integrate that into our lives and do the best we can. John Stuart Mill that whole Scottish philosopher said the greatest good for the greatest number.

Dr. Cooper

That’s a great reminder. You know, you know, you look at the plus side, you’re, you’re influencing thousands of lives a year. The downside, you might be tweaking a one in 1 million. That’s a, that’s a pretty powerful data point. Very nice. Very nice.

Dr. Schaffner

I would wish for perfection. But waiting for perfection is the great enemy of the current good.

Dr. Cooper

Right, yeah. Keep bringing us back to that. All right. So somebody asks, why should they get the flu shot for the sake of others? For example, the person that asked this, they have an older family member who has already had the flu shot and their question is, well, why should I get it for their sake? If they’ve already had it, why I’m not putting them more at risk am I?

Dr. Schaffner

Well, I’m not sure I understand the question, but we get the flu vaccine really, for two reasons, these are all communicable diseases we’re talking about. They can spread and you can spread the virus. So we get it first of all, to protect ourselves. That makes sense, right? We’re going to get some benefit from this, but it also makes it less likely that we’ll be a dreaded spreader that we won’t give this virus. I mean, we don’t want to, but inadvertently to people who we love, the folks at work, the people with whom we’re at the gym, or, and we don’t want to do that. And Suzy to whom we give the virus with her diabetes, she may get really sick. So we always use these vaccines against these contagious infections for both personal and what we call community protection. We would like the impact on the communities, in which we live, particularly those close to us to be as low as possible.

Dr. Cooper

So even if you’re not, this person was asking specifically for, I believe their father, their father has already had the flu shot. Why would they get it to protect that person? Well, maybe they’re not for that specific reason, but as a community, you’re protecting other people in the process.

Dr. Schaffner

But let’s be realistic. So dad gets the flu vaccine, right? Why should I get the flu vaccine? Because I’m young and strong the flu is not going to get me well, for two reasons. One sometimes flu takes young, strong people less frequently, but puts them right in the emergency room and makes them definitely ill, all of us who work in hospitals see that every year. So you’re protecting yourself. But the other thing is your dad is getting the flu vaccine. We just said the flu vaccine is not perfect. So let’s build some layers of protection around Dad. Dad gets one layer of protection by getting vaccinated. He gets another layer if I’m vaccinated. So I can’t, I’m much less likely to bring flu into the house.

Dr. Cooper

Because it’s reducing the, the frequency or the, the dynamic of what you would then contract if you’ve had it? Even if you get it?

Dr. Schaffner

Right, right. Exactly. Layers of protection add up. And that makes dad safer. He’s safer with his own vaccine. He adds safety because I’m vaccinated and I can’t bring the virus to him.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. Good. Good. Um, all right. Just a couple more looking ahead, COVID obviously is the 24/7 news. Any sense of whether a similar issue will exist with various strains of COVID like we have with the flu? Or do we have, we have no idea at this point? Is it, is it possible to extrapolate with that?

Dr. Schaffner

Not good. Yeah. The essential part of the COVID virus, the, the critical part that the vaccines are designed to latch onto, uh, think of the COVID virus as a sphere. And then it has things that stick up out of it. The so-called spike proteins they’re key because they lock into the cell and allow the virus to get in. So the, the antibodies that are created, the protection gloms onto the spike protein, and then the virus can’t get into the cell and can’t multiply in our bodies. The point is the spike protein has remained very stable in the COVID virus. So, so far so good. It looks like the vaccines, which are being developed really are going to work against this virus. Now, mind you, the, the COVID virus can have other mutations that allows the virologists to track it and say that this strain or that strain, but the spike protein has remained stable. And from the point of view of the vaccine development, that’s key.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. And does that stay stable only because we’re in the first season of it and that could easily change next year? And I know you don’t know the hundred percent answer to this, but is that stable in the flu, but the next year it changes. And could that happen? Of course it could. Is that likely to happen with the COVID from your understanding of this point?

Dr. Schaffner

Our understanding is this, I mean, COVID virus has been in millions of people, so the virus has had millions of opportunities to mutate and the spike protein hasn’t, so far so good. Let’s not wish for bad things. Let’s hang on to the good stuff we’ve got and we’re going to be following this over time. If it changes, we’ll let you know. But so far so good.

Dr. Cooper

All right. Just one more kind of wrap up question. Um, final words of wisdom for listeners in regards to misconceptions, uh, preconceived notions, et cetera, about the flu shot. Just any, anything that I haven’t dug into with the right question or, or things you’d like to share based on other conversations and presentations you’ve done?

Dr. Schaffner

Uh, well, I always like to get in a note about pregnant women, women who are pregnant during flu season should be vaccinated against influenza. The American college of obstetricians and gynecologists is strongly in favor. It’s safe. Now, it has two very special benefits for the pregnant woman. One, it protects her. And it turns out that women who are pregnant, who get real flu are more likely to have complications than their non pregnant counterparts. So we want to protect those women, but more important to the minds of many, some of the protection that the woman makes passes through. The placenta goes into that newborn. And during the first six months of the newborn baby’s life too early to vaccinate the baby, her protection will provide some protection to that baby. Easily a half dozen studies show that. So if you activate the mom, you protect to the mom, as well as the newborn.

Dr. Cooper

Wow. I had not heard that.

Dr. Schaffner

And when the women hear that they roll up their sleeves.

Dr. Cooper

Totally, totally, absolutely. That’s fantastic. This has been so helpful.

Dr. Cooper

Thank you so much. Really appreciate you joining us.

Dr. Schaffner

My great pleasure. Of course, everybody stay healthy.

Dr. Cooper

Was that helpful? I love that. So many of our listeners are skeptical of the status quo. That’s what allows you to be who you are and have the impact you have. In the midst of our skepticism though, it’s valuable to have the opportunity to seek out the evidence, not to just lean on our gut feel or the most charismatic person among us, but what the peer reviewed literature truly reveals. Thank you for joining us on that journey today. And thank you for tuning into the number one podcast for health and wellness coaching. Next week’s episode is one of our hidden gems, an episode that isn’t currently in our all time, top 10, but probably should be. It’s our chance to dig into our vault of almost 150 episodes and pull up one of the all time best. And the one we’ve selected for next week, it absolutely qualifies as a legendary episode. Some fun news that we’ll have either just launched or is about to launch. When you hear this episode, we’ve partnered with an organization to make hoodies t-shirts hats, stickers, and all kinds of fun stuff out of our popular, be a catalyst logo design, and all profits will go to charity here at the end of the year. If you don’t currently receive our newsletter, which is probably where we’ll be putting that out, your next best option to stay on top of that is at the health and wellness coaching forum group over on Facebook, or shoot us a note anytime Results@catalystcoachinginstitute.com and we can send it over to you. Now it’s our turn to go out there and be a catalyst on this journey of life. This is Dr. Bradford Cooper, of the Catalyst Coaching Institute. I will speak with you soon on another episode of the Catalyst Health, Wellness, and Performance Coaching podcast, or maybe